Discussion: Strength/Prowess

[Sir Edward]

Time for the next virtue! For purposes of this, I'm considering "strength" and "prowess" to essentially be the same thing. Prowess of course has always been one of the most important of the knightly virtues. A knight who gets killed on his first skirmish isn't much use in the long run, for instance.

Geffroi de Charney, in his book of knighthood, spends an enormous amount of time on ranking "men of worth" by how much worth they have. Obviously prowess factors into this greatly, but also what men choose to do. For instance, a successful knight of war is more worthy than one who only does tournaments, even though both are "men of worth". (and remember, in his time, tournaments were not sport or games as we know them, but rather full battles, though the evolution had already begun I think).

In a modern context, obviously we have less use for skill with the sword, horse, or lance. It's unlikely that we'll get mugged in a dark alley and only have a full jousting kit at hand.

So I think we need to think of strength and prowess in broader terms. I think of it as a desire to excel in whatever undertakings you choose. To be good at your job, and not do anything half-assed if you can help it.

What do you think?

[Sir Wolf]

personal strength both in body and in mind. he needs to be able to uphold the other virtues with his body but know when/how to use them with his mind. his strength needs to be able to be used/depended upon by his friends or fellow knights.

[Sir Patrick]

This will be a short discussion, as Sir Wolf has completely nailed it right out of the gate!

[Sir Edward]

Doh! I mean... yay?

[Sir Brian]

Sir Wolf certainly captured the very essence of this virtue, the only addition I would make would be having the strength of spirit. Your body and mind has limitations, but your spirit can carry you through nearly insurmountable adversities even when you are physically and mentally exhausted. There are a plethora of examples of mere mortals accomplishing inconceivable feats from ancient times such as the Spartans at Thermopylae to the more recent century like the 101st at Bastogne. 

[Sir Wolf]

thank you sir brian. that is exactly what i was wanting to say with mind, but couldn't get out into words. you are a greater man at speaking with the written word that i can not express or get out of my head to put down to pen and paper.

sorry i didn't mean to steal this one ehehhe

[Sir William]

Short discussion this one, I think Sirs Wolf and Brian wrapped it up pretty well.  Prowess, for today is more than just skill in arms, horsemanship or as a courtier...now it means being able and well in doing the job at hand, whether it is your career or even just something you're repairing- how quickly and neatly you can perform it plays a very important part in life...and it need not be constrained to physical pursuits...I would think no one would disagree that Garry Kasparov displays considerable prowess in chess, or athletes in general with their abilities on-the-field.  I believe strength plays a large part of prowess, be it physical, mental or emotional strength (or spiritual, although I see that and emotional as more or less the same thing)...you couldn't get to that point w/out having endured some form of hardship to achieve that level.  Hope that makes sense.

[Sir James A]

So I think we need to think of strength and prowess in broader terms. I think of it as a desire to excel in whatever undertakings you choose. To be good at your job, and not do anything half-assed if you can help it.

This brought to mind a quote I saw on the AA and can't seem to track down, but along the lines of "Isn't it ironic that we put our heart and soul into our hobbies, but are paid the most for our mediocrity at work?". As well as Office Space, when asked about how many bosses he has, Peter says "Eight, Bob. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled, that and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired."

I do my job because I'm good at it and it pays the bills, but it's hard to say that I'm passionate about it most of the time. Most of the time, clients don't want to pay for the excessive amount of detail I'll go into on a project if given the freedom. I wonder if most knights enjoyed their job, or did it for the pay and had other hobbies?

[Sir William]

That's a good point, Sir James...with the exception of that small percentage of people who are doing 'what they love' by and large, a lot of us are working stiffs doing what we have to in order to get by and do the things we WANT to do.  I put far more thought and consideration into my kits and weapons than I do my job...and I'm good at what I do, but there's no passion in it.  I lost that some time ago; politics killed it for me.  But it does pay the bills and I'm no longer at a stage of my life where I can just switch up careers; having obligations like a mortgage, car notes, 2 teenaged daughters- all that adds up.  Whatever dreams I may have had, they no longer exist and the one that I have always had, appears to be coming to fruition thru almost no part of my own (the Order) but beyond that?

I work to pay the bills, but I live for the other stuff.

[Sir Patrick]

There's probably something to that thought.  Knights held the land they derived their incomes from at the whim of their lord.  If you got fired in those days, you literally lost everything!  And you thought the politics at your office keeps you up at night!  I would imagine, however, that most of them "loved' what they did.  For starters, it was the only life they had ever known since about the age of seven, and then the only other alternatives were to join the church (granted, not a bad gig for a nobleman) or be a serf.  Going back to Sir James's comment, in the modern day, one can work his tail off at the office and get little to no credit or compensation.  With physical prowess as the only measuring stick for success, a knight on the other hand, was compensated on the spot through tournament prizes and taking ransoms.

EDIT:  Ok, maybe he wasn't monetarily compensated on the spot with regards to ransom, but there was no doubt who deserved the credit.

[Sir William]

I'd love to challenge every able-bodied male that works for the same installation I do to a joust in full kit.  I'd even allow that one or two of them might get me...but not the rest. 

I'm all for merit-based actions as opposed to status quo/seniority based...don't get me wrong, I am for recognizing the individuals who have put in so much time to the company, but I don't feel that should be the only way up in terms of advancement.