Discussion: Honor

[Sir Edward]

I've heard it said that compassion can be shown in giving a drink of water to a thirsty friend, but true honor can be found in giving a drink of water to a thirsty enemy.

Honor is a nebulous concept, as it has taken many forms throughout the ages. For instance, during the renaissance there were complex rules about the use of duels to settle matters of honor, much of which centered around attempting to disprove a lie about you, which could tarnish your honor. This form of honor is an intangible quality, like reputation, but internal as well.

However the word honor also describes one's own behavior, particularly in how you behave when no one sees, or in how you treat an adversary.

Honor is something that many people associate with knights, almost to a fault. That is, often times "honor" is not thought of as a common trait today, and instead is often relegated to "a nobler time". However, I don't think the need for honor has ever diminished, and there's as great a need for it today as there ever was before. We tend to see severe lack of it our politicians, and some large businesses, where greed often can take center stage.

What do you think are some good examples of honor today? And historically? How does it fit into our framework of chivalry?

[Sir Patrick]

Ten views and no takers.  Okay, I'll go first.  I'm hard-pressed to find a good example of honor today.  I'm not saying they aren't out there, they just aren't high profile enough to hit the radar.  As far as historical examples, I'll offer up the Roman Cincinnatus.  During a time of crisis, Cincinnatus was asked by the Roman Republic to take on the roll of dictator and commander of the army.  Sixteen days later, after having routed the republic's enemies and with the army still flush with the victory, Cincinnatus returned power back to the senate and went back to his estate.  Could you see any modern leader thrust into the role of military dictator ceeding power so willingly? 

Sir Edward asks how honor fits into our code of chivalry, and I submit this:  If Truth is the bones of chivalry and Humility the sinew that hold it together (as Sir Brian so eliquantly put it), Honor is the muscle that sets it in motion.  Honor is active, it about how one carries himself through the various episodes of his life.  A person can be honest, and humble, but not necessarilly be honorable.  There may be a dozen "Truths" to a situation, but the honorable man knows there is only one that is in the spirit of chivalry and acts accordingly--regardless of who is watching, the difficulty involved, or the results to himself.

The modern world tends to relegate Honor to a "different time" because deep down, it is inconvenient, or is viewed with suspicion.  Honorable behavior is all to often a facade for acquiring power, or to use as spin control.  It seems the more squeaky clean someone is nowadays, the darker the secrets they're hiding.  We live in age of cynicism where people tend to behave as if the world is too messed up to change so they might as just go for theirs and damn anying else. Too often our only barometer of success is material wealth and status, and people who play by the rules are chumps to be taken advantage of.  We've even killed the knight, reducing him down to a barbarous savage preying on the peasantry, adhering to a chivalric code simply to profit by way of ransom.  What society fails to grasp, is honor--chivalry--is an ideal that can never be lived up to.  It is a quest undertaken for the journey, not the destination.  All who take the path will fall victim to close scrutiny and should not be derided for it.  It is the setting out on the path and the small changes it makes in us that will ultimately make changes in the world.

Hope that didn't weird anyone out

[Sir Wolf]

well said

[Sir Brian]

Very well stated Red Knight and I like your correlation of honor being the muscle that sets chivalry in motion! 

I often am reminded of the movie Rob Roy when Liam Neeson playing as Robert MacGregor is explaining honor to his two young sons.
“Honor is the gift that a man gives to himself� – Although a well written line from the notoriously inaccurate Hollywood movie machine, the words are nonetheless utterly true and they resonate within the very soul of everyone that longs for the days when chivalry was paramount in the bygone world.

But if I were to expand upon that explanation I would say that Respect is the very linchpin of honor:
Respect first and foremost of oneself, Respect for your peers and their honor, Respect for those in need of mercy, charity and protection. For without respect honor is but a sham and vain undertaking of ignorant juveniles at play. – The numerous duels perpetrated long after the decline of all other chivalric ideals comes to mind. 

[Sir Wolf]

i think respect is todays word for honor. or it should be. agreed!

[Sir Patrick]

I agree completely with you gentlemen.  Honor without respect is mere artiface, and an excuse for base behavior in the name of chivalry.

[Sir Wolf]

re reading this i do think that society thinks that honor like so many other chivalry ideals are something that are out of reach so they don't try. respect/honor being one of the ones most wanted and claimed to have been slighted with. people fail to see that baby steps get them in the correct direction just as fast as giant leaps. having the honor to fess up and leave your insurance info when you back up into an unmanned parked car or to simply tell the truth without fear etc.

wikipedia and the dictionary have so many different names for honor its crazy. but i sorta like: honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honor

[Sir William]

To live honorably is to accept a more difficult road in life, if only because you'll be by yourself for most of the journey.  As you've all stated, rather eloquently, being a man of honor is to invite ignorance and ridicule- two defense mechanisms baser folk use to deride something they cannot understand.

Something so little as correcting a cashier when they give back too much change can cause the people around you to give you a second look- and cynicism being as rampant as it is, they all question the why of it.  Nevermind that an honorable man also sleeps well at night- he fears no reprisal because he's done nothing wrong.  At least, that's how I see it.

Its easy to sit back and be a casual observer, give in to lower instincts simply because other sheep have told you thus, and you've witnessed it for yourself.  One need not be a crusader in all things, but it is important that one understands the need to fight for what you believe in...should you decide not to, you can blame no one but your own self when things go awry that probably could've been avoided had you taken a stand when the opportunity came.  This can apply to many things, I'm not speaking on any one instance.

[Sir Patrick]

To live honorably is to accept a more difficult road in life, if only because you'll be by yourself for most of the journey.

That's why I'm always hanging out here!

Something so little as correcting a cashier when they give back too much change can cause the people around you to give you a second look- and cynicism being as rampant as it is, they all question the why of it.

That seriously happened to me over the weekend, and in the few moments it took to make the correction, I heard multiple grumblings behind me along the lines of "Just take it and get moving."  Yes it might have been expedient, but it would not have been right.  The young lady at the checkout thanked me, because it saved her from having her drawer come up short at the end of the night.  They may be big, or they may be small, but there are always consequences to our actions.

[Sir William]

Agreed; I had the same experience yesterday at a local deli- the owner is a genial guy, made a simple mistake and I corrected him on it.  Granted, he probably wouldn't have gotten in much trouble being the owner and all but still- it was the principle of the matter.  Let the sheep continue bleating, its what they're best at.

[Sir Edward]

Well spoken everyone.

I see honor as being ready and able to tell right from wrong, at all times, and make the choice to do right. Not just when it is convenient or beneficial to yourself, but particularly when it is not. It's not just about reputation, but also what you do when no one knows or sees. It's holding yourself to a higher standard of being fair, just, and fighting against evil and injustice, large or small.

I had almost forgotten-- Sir Brian and I were talking on one of the last faire weekends about Saladin during the crusades. The leader of the Saracen forces, he was a man with an amazing sense of honor. I wish I could remember most of the historical examples, but it's been quite some time since I read about it. I think I need a refresher soon.

[Sir William]

In reading Steven Runciman's the Third Crusade, dry as it was, there are direct references to Saladin, his wisdom, his sense of chivalry, but not much about the man.  Just from what I myself have read, Saladin was, quite possibly, the greatest man of his day, with whom honor and integrity were firmly ingrained.

He's on my research list as well...Runciman made no bones about some of the more barbarous acts of the Crusaders, and made mention that Saladin's camp did not respond in kind as far as cruelty went.

[Sir Edward]

What's also interesting is that Saladin also found European knighthood to be fascinating, and wanted learn all about it and be knighted himself. I think someone did knight him eventually, though he certainly was well regarded as a chivalrous knight across Europe. Again, I forget the details.

[Sir William]

It'd be good if you could dig that one up...do you find it hard to avoid romanticizing this or that one based on personal like/dislike?  I admit to that particular issue...if I see someone as a hero, they get all of the assorted positives that are normally associated with heroes, whether or not they directly apply is always something I have to think on later.

[Sir Edward]

Yeah, apparently Saladin's virtues were exaggerated a bit during the Victorian era's medieval revival, just like the overall image of the "knight in shining armor". However, since there are a lot of historical records of his chivalric and honorable acts, as well as praise from his enemies in Europe, there's a lot of truth behind it.

But you're right, it's hard to separate out what it true and what isn't, when reputations take on a life of their own.