Discussion: Truth

[Sir Edward]

Well, in keeping with the "virtue a week" idea, I'll start another discussion thread now.

This week I wish to bring up the concept of "Truth". In various interpretations of a code of chivalry, usually a form of "truth" or "honesty" is mentioned. This is always an obvious choice, since no one likes a liar. Without honesty, a knight can not be trustworthy.

However, to me the word "truth" goes beyond being honest. It implies also that one must seek knowledge and wisdom. Wisdom to discern truth from falsehood, and a desire to dispel such falsehoods. An ability to learn, and set aside prejudices, and accept when you are wrong gracefully.

For this reason, I resonated with one of the scenes in the movie Excalibur. In that film, King Arthur asks Merlin: "Which is the greatest quality of Knighthood? Courage, Compassion, Loyalty, Humility?" Merlin replies, "These qualities blend, like the metals we mix to make a good sword. But the greatest quality is "Truth," yes, above all it must be Truth, for when a man lies, he murders some part of the world."

His response is perhaps simplistic, but I feel that his point is valid. A knight can not be trustworthy or continue to improve himself is he is not true to himself and to all those around him.

However, of course honesty can be a double-edged sword. There are times when the blunt, honest truth is painful or harmful. For instance,  if you tell a dying man that "everything will be OK", you know you're lying to him; however telling him "you're bleeding out and will be dead in seconds, and will leave an ugly corpse, and I never liked you anyway" may not be the best course of action.

I find truth/honesty to be a very interesting virtue in this regard. It's one of the most important, and yet has its limits. A number of years ago, I had set upon myself the task of focusing on one virtue each week (similar to what we're doing now on the forum, except internally), and try to uphold it as best I could during those seven days. I found honesty to be more difficult than I thought. I'm a very honest person, and despise being deceptive. And yet, I caught myself omitting information or telling small lies more than I ever thought I was doing, for the sake of not upsetting people or making more work for myself. I was truly surprised and it was a valuable lesson.

What does "truth" mean to you? When is it better not to be truthful, either by omission or by falsehood? How often do you unintentionally deceive people, and when is it OK to do so, to you?

[Sir William]

It was only a matter of time before this one was broached...for myself, I find that I will not lie to a complete stranger, or anyone for whom I feel no empathic bond.  Family, friends and loved ones- I'll lie if it will protect them from something that would harm them if they knew of it; I mean who's gonna tell their wife that this dress or that outfit makes her ass look fat?  Or that their parents look old and decrepit, or their house smells like old people?  You tell her she looks great, you tell them they look great and you love coming to visit.  I'm not speaking personally, just using examples.

So, those types of lies will fly out of my mouth unreservedly if I think it'll preserve their sense of dignity and that person or persons means enough to me to say so.  It is slightly different with male compatriots- as I am one to speak plainly I look for the same in others...believe it or not, a lot of people don't subscribe to the same outlook.

Truth is more about perception...if enough people believe it to be true, it IS true in the argumentative sense- which is why I've taken it upon myself to do factfinding on anything I suspect is NOT true.  Its easy, requires no thought to swallow the drivel being forcefed to the public-at-large, anyone who watches Fox News can attest to it.  Slickly presented, good looking anchors with the right timbre of voice and wide eyed look to evince the right emotion in the audience.  I would rather get the news from them at swordpoint...see if they'll lie then.

LOL

All kidding aside, all I meant was that The Truth is what it is to the one who has embraced it- his calling, then, is to bring others to that Truth.  But what if what HE believes as truth is in fact a lie?

I consider honesty to be a core virtue- without it, we'd be little better than demons.  Brings to mind a movie, The Invention of Lying, anyone saw it?  Imagine a world where no one lied, everyone spoke succinctly and clearly...it was comical because of that.  See yourself going on a blind date and the first thing your new date says to you is that she had a feeling you would be unattractive so she masturbated before your arrival.

A good deal harsher than 'it is so nice to meet you, heard so much about you' bs that first-time daters pass between eachother, right?  Would that make for a better world?

[Sir Patrick]

Had to think about this one.  While 100% honesty 100% of the time is a noble goal, sometimes it only makes a bad situation worse.  For example:  Your significant other asks, "Does this outfit make my ass look big?"  We all know the answer to that without even having to SEE said outfit!  Or someone asks, "Isn't my wife lovely?", and you think she looks like a one-eyed goat.  Sometimes, a knight has to know when the consequences of the truth are not justified by the telling of said truth.  That being said, a knight MUST be 100% honest in matters of justice, and matters of business.  If the truth must be bent, it should NEVER be done with malicious intent, in the pursuit of personal gain, or when it will have negative consequences to others.  A knight should also never be less than honest about his achievments and experiences (don't make stuff up about yourself).  Comforting a dying man=good, taking credit for someone else's work to advance your career=bad, not telling a guy his wife looks like a one-eyed goat=your call there, my friend.

[Sir William]

Well said, Red Knight.

[Sir Wolf]

truth is one of the most important i think. i love the merlin quote and Red, I was thinking of the same "husband/wife issues" when i was reading Sir Edwards post.

Without truth there is no honor in doing anything I believe. you are simply then just going thru the motions devoid of feeling or purpose. one needs to tell the truth or be a good witness to his neighbor. to uphold the truth set by the law of the land not a "wellllllllllll it could read like this"

[Sir Edward]

Yes, that's very much my thinking. Without truth, everything else falls apart, as there can be no justice, no honor, and no learning.

[Sir Patrick]

Truth is the foundation upon which the pillars of chivalry are built.  I wish to clarify in my earlier post that I do not condone lying by any means, I was merely pointing out there are certain, trivial social situations in which our opinions (which can be a bit subjective) are not necessarilly THE TRUTH.  In those instances, I feel it's better to err on the side of courtesy.

[Sir Edward]

In those instances, I feel it's better to err on the side of courtesy.

Absolutely. And of course, there can also be times when the greater good is service by completely breaking the rules, so to speak. For instance, if by choice you were to take the blame for something so as to save someone else an even greater level of dishonor or embarrassment, that's a choice that results in you making a sacrifice, in a way that's technically dishonest, but could be completely selfless and honorable.

[Sir Brian]

I also loved Merlin’s quote from the Excalibur movie, although I would’ve preferred if he had compared when a man lies to him murdering a part of his soul instead of the ambiguousness of the “world”. As was already mentioned truth is far too often unclear as well as relative. Some people will adamantly believe what they want to believe despite any evidence to the contrary of those beliefs and in all honesty is it right for anyone else to refute them for it?

What is far more important and has also been mentioned previously are the motives of the individual offering their concept of “truth”. If your heart is without malice then an honest sentiment will always be preferable and received in good grace by those who genuinely yearn to hear the truth.

What aspect of this virtue I think is even more important than the motives of someone is their consistency. By consistency I mean that a person should carefully weigh their perspectives with a jaundiced eye towards their inner gullibility to satisfy their own vanity.  - i.e. to not allow your perception of a situation, person(s), action, article or statement be easily swayed because of societal expediency. The road to a clear conscience is paved with internal as well as eternal vigilance.

[Sir Patrick]

The road to a clear conscience is paved with internal as well as external vigilance.

Without internal vigilance, external vigilance is vain, artificial, and hyporitical.

[Sir Brian]

The road to a clear conscience is paved with internal as well as external vigilance.

Without internal vigilance, external vigilance is vain, artificial, and hyporitical.

  ~ I profess I'm a bit confused.

It is true that external vigilance is vain, artificial and hypocritical without internal vigilance but in that quoted post I wrote eternal:
Which I meant everlasting, never ending etc. 

[Sir Patrick]

That makes more sense!  With all the talk of internal, my brain saw the next part as external.  When I checked my reply before posting,  I thought that I had made a typo (impossible since it was your quote) and "fixed" it!    My apologies, Sir Brian.

And that's the truth!

[Sir Brian]

lol cool...for awhile there I thought I broke my thesaurus/spellchecker again! 

[Sir Ancelyn]

Shortly following the publication of Ambassador G'Kar's bestselling book on the Narn Homeworld -

Narn speaking to G'Kar: "But what is Truth and what is god?"

G'Kar: "Truth is a river."

The Narn again: "And god?"

G'Kar: "God is the mouth of the river."

Narns walk away nodding and smiling.

[Sir Edward]

Yeah, Babylon-5 had some great quotes.

"Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth."