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Author Topic: Rules of Heraldry  (Read 19437 times)

Sir Edward

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Rules of Heraldry
« on: 2010-10-14, 15:40:08 »
I was looking on wikipedia recently since I saw some discussion about heraldry that raised the question of use of black as a color, and also separately on someone's website I noticed a quartered division using two colors (no metal), namely red and blue.

Apparently (and I've been neglecting this), it seems that it's OK for colors to touch colors in the base division of the shield's field. Additionally, while we tend to think of black working both as a color and a metal (comparing it to a fur), this wasn't usually the case in western Europe. It usually was strictly a color, so a black charge over a color or vice-versa wouldn't always have been acceptable.

Anyway, check this out. It's insane:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Grenville_Diptych_edit2.jpg


Wikipedia's heraldry page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry
« Last Edit: 2010-10-14, 15:41:43 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
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Sir William

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #1 on: 2010-10-14, 15:46:08 »
Would I be totally wrong if I just chose one of those as my CoA?   I ask because I get the feeling that for most of you guys, what you wear has some sort of connection to you- like a familial crest; my ancestry would be cost-prohibitive to track down as at least on my Mom's side, there's an adoption for which we cannot find the original parents.  I could CLAIM ancestry from anywhere though, so long as I didn't need to furnish papers of nobility.  lol

Wait a minute, I just looked this up- this was for ONE person only?  719 quarterings of the same family?  GEEZ.  It'd cost the price of at least an econobox car to get something like that made for a surcoat and shield!!!!
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
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Sir Edward

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #2 on: 2010-10-14, 16:07:00 »
Yep, that was one set of arms. It's crazy.

Some people do track down family arms and work from there, but it's common practice in groups like the SCA and so on to make something up for yourself that means something to yourself. Sir Brian and I both invented ours from scratch, using symbolism that means something to ourselves.

In my case, I wrote up a small web page describing the meaning of the elements of mine, though I didn't go into much detail on what the personal origins of them are and why I wanted them in there, mostly the historical meanings of those charges, etc:  http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/my-coa.html
« Last Edit: 2010-10-14, 16:08:21 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
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Sir Edward

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #3 on: 2010-10-14, 16:20:27 »
This is a really great starting point to understand the rules of heraldry. It's the SCA's interpretation, so it's not 100% accurate to historical heraldry (though it's really good), but then again, there were variations across regions and centuries, as with anything.

http://heraldry.sca.org/primer/

As an aside, I got my arms approved in the SCA (they consider the ankh valid though it's not a historical charge, but I discuss that on my heraldry page).
« Last Edit: 2010-10-14, 16:21:09 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
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Sir William

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #4 on: 2010-10-14, 16:41:29 »
Wow,
Yep, that was one set of arms. It's crazy.

Some people do track down family arms and work from there, but it's common practice in groups like the SCA and so on to make something up for yourself that means something to yourself. Sir Brian and I both invented ours from scratch, using symbolism that means something to ourselves.

In my case, I wrote up a small web page describing the meaning of the elements of mine, though I didn't go into much detail on what the personal origins of them are and why I wanted them in there, mostly the historical meanings of those charges, etc:  http://ed.toton.org/chivalry/my-coa.html

Didn't go into much detail?  That was a wealth of information- and an excellent starting point for me to begin understanding what all of it entails.  It seems more intricate than putting together a harness, requiring more thought on the matter.

Note to self:  Creative juices- now would be the time to start flowing!
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Sir Brian

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #5 on: 2010-10-14, 16:48:03 »
Sir Edward is correct in that I developed mine from scratch. My original and current CoA was the combined arms of me and my wife’s. The gold griffin on green being mine and the white rose on black hers. I used a counter-charged cross to divide or quarter the fields. Of course I had since learned that I made a few mistakes in my CoA which incited me to revamp it. ;)
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

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Sir Edward

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #6 on: 2010-10-14, 17:35:20 »
Didn't go into much detail?  That was a wealth of information- and an excellent starting point for me to begin understanding what all of it entails.  It seems more intricate than putting together a harness, requiring more thought on the matter.

Note to self:  Creative juices- now would be the time to start flowing!

Well, not much detail on why they were important symbols to me. Plenty of detail on what they mean. If you understand the distinction. :)

But yeah, I think the important thing is to come up with something that looks good, and feels right. Not everyone has symbolism that is personally meaningful in the same sort of way. You can start with charges you want, or you can start with a meaning you want to convey and then research what charges represent those. Or you can just use something you think looks cool, or derives from a nickname.

Just be aware that if it's overly simplistic, like just a dragon on a single-color field, it's probably been done or is very close to someone else's. Anything with multiple charges has a much better chance of being unique. This uniqueness may not matter to you, of course, unless you get into a larger group like the SCA. That's why I took the time to register mine, so that whether I get more active with them or not, my uniqueness is protected there, and I can happily paint up shields and banners and display them proudly without anyone complaining. :)

The way the SCA does things is very close to European standards. For instance, any new CoA has to have at least two "points" of difference from any other registered arms. I think several things saved mine from having to undergo changes, because swords on Bends are very common, as are dragons. But the fact that I did the Bend in "sinister" (rare), the dragon is in a "couchant" position (also rare), and I combined them with an ankh (pretty uncommon), all worked to my favor.
« Last Edit: 2010-10-14, 17:38:41 by Sir Edward »
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Sir William

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #7 on: 2010-10-14, 19:17:32 »
I do understand the distinction- since it has personal meaning, the symbology might be different for a viewer than what it means for you.  All good.

Understood also with regard to variety...unfortunately, my tastes so far run to something along the lines of those of the English Kings prior to the Hundred Years' War.  Three lions rampant on a field of red, something about gules, which I haven't figured out what that means.  Heraldry seems comical at first til you realize just how important it was to be able to recognize friend from foe on the battlefield.  They could've just ridden around in open faced bascinets, that would've made things very interesting, wouldn't it?  :)
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Sir Edward

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #8 on: 2010-10-14, 20:08:12 »
Well, it was more than just recognizing people with their visors down. It was also to recognize them at a distance, and most importantly, to recognize them by reputation without having met them face to face previously.

Gules is red. All the colors have specific heraldic names.

Colors:
Vert = green,
Gules = red,
Purpure = purple,
Azure = blue,
sable = black

And the metals:

Or = gold/yellow,
Argent = Silver/white

Detail here:  http://heraldry.sca.org/primer/tinctures.html

Sir Ed T. Toton III
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Sir Brian

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #9 on: 2010-10-14, 20:15:22 »
Here is another site that has some pretty extensive explanations of the different charges.  :)
http://bdweb9271a.bluedomino.com/learning.html
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir Wolf

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #10 on: 2010-10-14, 20:43:07 »
hey how did you find a picture of my new shield?

Sir William

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #11 on: 2010-10-14, 21:12:39 »
hey how did you find a picture of my new shield?

LOL wouldn't that be something though?
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
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“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Sir Edward

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #12 on: 2010-10-15, 14:04:49 »
I thought of something funny and whipped this up...

Argent, three ghouls gules



EDIT: Changed image to a shield shape
« Last Edit: 2010-10-15, 15:31:52 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
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Sir William

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #13 on: 2010-10-15, 14:45:11 »
That would go perfect with my Zombie Apocalypse Raider outfit!  Maybe with a sword sticking through its chest, even.
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Sir Edward

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Re: Rules of Heraldry
« Reply #14 on: 2010-10-15, 18:54:00 »

Oh, one tip I wanted to bring up-- when it comes time that you want to work on your personal heraldry, the "KISS" principle applies ("keep it simple, stupid"). You want something that won't be a major PITA to paint or embroider, and historically most of the designs that would have actually been on a knight's shield, particularly in the earlier mail-wearing periods, wouldn't have been terribly complex. Geometric shapes started out being much more common than animals, for instance.

On mine, I'm guilty of making what some people call "resume heraldry".. I fight with swords, so I want a sword on there. That sort of thing. Also, dragons tend to get overused, and are difficult to paint.

The trick is to come up with something that's elegantly simple, and yet unique.
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