"I think that more Knights are made on the school-ground than on the battle field."
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Author Topic: Kits on a budget  (Read 17557 times)

Sir Robert

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #15 on: 2009-12-18, 20:30:01 »
Ahhh, so right! I agree with the gauge difference depending on arming site. I personally like leg armor to be lighter- 16 gauge at most. 18 and 20 are workable but I find them less forgiving, they warp easy and spring rather than form, but thats a factor of your equipment and manufacturing method- they press and roll very nice.

I agree that there are examples of multi-function armor- any rule in this is only about 50% accurate at best. In fact I love this type of armor and if it had been me, I would have went for this type of design. The why is simple- of the sets od armor I have I have one favorite- not due to its looks really, more due to its comfort, its well suited to combat at 12G, and I spent rather longer tailoring it and decorating it with etching. That being said I think that at least some knights floowed that rule- and some had several harnesses. Given that many of us are Rennie's, we all likly have a closet of garb- I still have but trwo favorites, my favorite armor and a Cavalier garb.

I would reccemend varied thicknesses in SCA combat as well, the legs while the front may be good at 16g or 18g, the back is good at 18g or maybe lighter or alternate materials

Sir Robert

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #16 on: 2009-12-18, 20:51:11 »
Chain Maile and rust- I agree- chain is a bit "self polishing" but we really are not stricly talking about rust and paint but rather the blackening of metal that occurs during the rusting process, this is the chemical oxidation that results in the oxides that are removed by the friction and blackening can also occure during the forging process of carbonzation. Its surface and worn enough would wear off or can be cleaned off, plate mail would show this more readilly as it lacks the friction chain maile has.

I have tried a few methods of makeing blackened mail, paint is not a permanent solution as you know, I dis this once and had black "soot" all over me at the end of a day. I have tried chemical blueing- this works a bit better, and anodizing, again a bit better and in colors if one wants, but the metal-on metal is tough so I came to the conclusion to "live with it" and left it at that. Commercailly they do have nicely blackened, anodized maile, it looks good but is usually beyond what I care to invest.

Thanks all- this is turning out to be a great thread- your feedback is great! :)

Sir Robert

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #17 on: 2009-12-18, 21:02:50 »
Sir Blackwolf

Love the tabards you have on your site, we will have to talk as I will be looking for a banner and tabard this season.

I hope to post some pictures of my work here and in-process shots as well to maybe help show some tools and techniques I use in making armor, its more a matter of getting them off the camera than anything, but I'll start showing examples of components, finished works, and the etching/guilding I do.

My latest work is a articulated gorget, the front is etched with the white tree of gondor and "knight of the order of the light" is elvish script below, it came out rather nicly so I hope to show that soon- made in 16g, cold rivited.

Sir Matthew

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #18 on: 2009-12-19, 00:03:58 »
I would agree that this has been a very interesting topic.  I would also like to add that another problem with this type of discussion is that the information in the source material itself can be contradictory.  It's amazing how many times I looked at books or websites run by reenactors or historical researchers and discovered different "facts".  Then when I would look at the primary source material they were citing, I often found that both were correct, depending on time, territory, etc. that you discussing. Sometimes older volumes contained entirely incorrect information for many reasons, inaccurate interpretation by the original researcher, poor interpretation of text from another language or even ignorance to the subject matter by the author!  While it seems amazing, I have seen it.  It is for this reason, I always attempt to backtrack information to primary sources and investigate it myself.  All in all, I have found this most interesting.  As Stormdelver has pointed out, mercenaries were opportunistic, acquiring pieces by happenstance and most assuredly, my Elizabethan kit demonstrates that very well.

Sir Robert

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #19 on: 2009-12-19, 12:05:05 »
I have also learned not to trust pictures or meseums. I have went to a few museum's and looked at their collections of armor and suprisingly found suits assembled incorrectly. I have never been sure if this was because they thought that is how it was worn or if it was a mistake- but as assembled it would not have been servicable, maybe it was the limits of the mount it was held on. But it does go to show that you have to be careful.

In armor I wourk primarilly from one reference -Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction: The 14th Century, althogh I make my own patterns and will borrow from any period or completly make them from my imagination- not dissimular to how actual armorers worked. There are also parts that I choose not to make at all and rather source them- again not uncommon even back in the 14th century.

The story of that was for archer knees, I forged out a pair of gothic cops, they still hang im my workshop in fact, then the lames. I got very frustrated in this as I could not get the movement and clearences to work properly, with a shy of 1/8" draft between the pieces I could only get a 30% to maybe 40% deflection- ok for stolling but not good for say, sitting, kneeling or so forth where near 90 is needed. So I chucked them across the workshop in frustration. After cooling down I thought about it and ordered a set from another smith. When I got them- they were very nice and combat weight- I laughed. Not only was he using very loose "floating rivets" but his draf was nearly 3/4"- no wonder I was only getting 30%.

Lesson: I was way to hard on myself, I am an engineer and accustom to working with tight tolerences and machined parts, so like a mechanic I look at everything as it should fit just right, not slop about. Funny thing is (and before we get back into this again yes I know this is an observation not any rule), slop was actually part of the designs- it allowed armor to move quickly with the body.

I was so keen on the specifications of high gothic armor- which is very tight and works of art in many senses of the word, that I just jumped into it. The designs I was replication were made by masters, with decades of experience, specific tools, forms and assistance we just don't have, so if your forging something out remember, in many ways armor making and black smithing are nearly lost arts and your ressurecting that trade, likly from reading books not from learning from a master (which I would love to do). Don't be to hard on yourself.

So I mentioned tools and forms, stragely Armoring will require you to make many of your own tools, to be sure you can buy tools but they may not be quite right. I started with a selection of ball-pein hammers, as many autobody hammers as I could find, pieces of flat steel stock, some angle iron, a few stumps, and my nice set of wood chisles.

Why chisles and gouges if you can find them? Well you will need to carve out a few dishes, and you will need to almost continually make forms that serve as moulds for more complex parts. I catually made a backplate mould to help get the spine fitting and shoulderblade cups, it works great (ok it smokes a bit when you drop hot plate onto it) but it makes creating the complex curves much quicker.

As a side note, an commercial armorer made a pair of greeves that were heavilly fluted (a process I love but very time consuming on an anvil) he pressed these out with a large press and a form, my guess would be a 50T+ press, but the results are breathtaking. Fuctionally I would feel  bad for an SCA opponent with these- the fluts make the armor very rigid, and since the primary weapon material is cane- the raised ribs of the flutes in this case are rather sharp and would cause some weapon damage if struck hard. Beautiful work though. I estimate that to hand forge them out would take maybe 100 or so hours without a proper form. This could be ton with a lighter press if the material is heated- the form would be betst to be milled from steel though. This would be fairlt small for our practical shop- a top "setter" the "male" point that would sink the material and a bottom "cup" the "female" side that you press into- both dully v shaped- maybe stock being 1"wx2"dx2"h, this would require many, many pressing cycles but could be used for many things, the less deep the form, the more it could be used on curved parts so for me, I may look at making one around 1"wx3/4"dx3"h...pondering this now.

Allan Senefelder

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #20 on: 2009-12-19, 14:55:57 »
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The information comes from several sources, including a renown museum armor reproduction smith in Canada that I am trying to find again

Are you trying to come up with Pete Fuller ?


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   I am really referring to the 14-15th century, England and not at all completely-


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However, armor was made this way- including the baking in charcoal


What Bill said, heat treating armour seems to have been an advent of the second half of the 15th century and took time to diseminate around Europe to become common in the 16th. The Italians neven really took to it prefering slack quenching to full hardening to reduce the risk of warping or cracking, while the Germans seemed to have accelled at it. Dr Alan Williams " The Royal Armoury at Greenwich 151-1649 A History of its Technology " shed some interetsing light on the practice in Germany ( i'd recommend you pick up a copy if you can find it )and England. There seems to be little documentation of armouring in England beyond the London company before Greenwich was esablished but heat treatment of armour was seemingly unknown there prior to the 1550's when via German masters of the Greenwich armoury the process was introduced. The heavy handed guild over sight requiring speicalization in single pieces and stamping by makers of single pieces was a practice of the Germans who required that you become a master in single pieces at a time, thus if you wanted to make gauntlets you had submit exmaples of gauntlet work and if passed you were made a master in gaubtlets alone, you had to submit more work for other pieces to become further certified as a master of other pieces. I would also recommend picking up a copy of Alan Williams " The Knight and the Blast Furnace " pretty much the handbook of armour heat treatment during the period.

The Royal Armoury at Greenwich http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/094809222X/ref=sr_1_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261234418&sr=1-1&condition=new
There don't seem to be any copies of The Knight and the Blast Furnace avaliable right now but heres the listing http://www.amazon.com/Knight-Blast-Furnace-History-Metallurgy/dp/9004124985/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261234476&sr=1-1


Sir Robert

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #21 on: 2009-12-19, 22:05:33 »
The baking in charcoal or coke is indeed heat treatment, while case hardening is simular but more limited- could be, there was an artical on *his* site covering metal apperences, surface treatments, why they did not sand or polish, and the reference for where the work Stickler came from (one who used a stick, covered in grease or tallow, rolled in grit as an early sand "paper".

Here is a good metallurgical reference that seems to cover it well:
http://www.oakeshott.org/metal.html

Sir Robert

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #22 on: 2009-12-19, 22:15:59 »
No I don't believe it was Pete, unless he changed his site over the past year, it doesn't resemble waht I remember anyway....but close. There were forging articals on the site and the person offered classes.

Sir Matthew

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #23 on: 2009-12-20, 00:00:15 »
This is a very interesting topic indeed and points out an interesting facet of Europe at this time.  It seems that Germany had a very strong hand in the developement of English armor, weapons and tactics in the 1500's.  This is primarly due to the large numbers of German Landsknecht mercenaries that were employed there.  King Henry is well known for copying their fashion and dress.  It is only natural the the weapons, armor and battlefield tactics employed by Landsknechts would find their way into England.  By no means does this mean they were the only influences on English military developement of the time, however.  King Henry is well know to have greatly admired the Dutch gunmakers and indeed enticed several to assist him in setting up Royal gunmakers for England as part of his efforts to modernize the English army.  By contrast, the influence of Spain can be seen in the developement of the English navy, which began producing ships that were the complete opposite of those used by Spain.  Spainish warships were large and unmanueverable, employed as floating batteries for cannon in battle.  England developed smaller, more manueverable vessels with fewer guns.  Very interesting how other nations influenced the developement of each other.

Allan Senefelder

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #24 on: 2009-12-20, 15:32:51 »
Quote
There were forging articals on the site and the person offered classes.

That sounds like Randal Graham, when he used to live in Canada but Randal was a blade smith. Its not Rob Valentine, he never offered classes and its not Eric Dube, no classes there either nor is it Francois L'Archeveque . Pete Fuller is the only Canadian armourer i'm aware of with a musuem background ( former currator ).

Sir Robert

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #25 on: 2009-12-22, 02:33:27 »
Thanks for the names, but they don't sound right either, I think the guy I am talking about is from Ontario.

Anyway onto other things. I am thinking still about that fluting press, I made a prototype but its not stong enough to do what I want yet, wish I lived near a salvage yard...Anyway I think it will work if I can find the right parts, then this will make cold fluting easy. Now the one I did build works well with a forge, and that is ok but not quite want I was looking for.

So while I'm thinking of it, anyone have things that they are fairly good at fabricating? So far breast and backplates seem to be my favorite followed by Spaulders, not as good with cops and helmets, anyone care to share experiences here?

Sir Robert

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #26 on: 2010-02-05, 19:16:01 »
Well its been some time since my last posting, its been a very busy month or so for me and I wish it were all because of making a new harness or something, but that’s not the case.

So I have been working on repairs and contemplating disassembling my harness for painting or powder coating, I just can’t bring myself to do it yet because as much as I like color I still like the raw metal surface and don’t look forward to masking all the detailed etching work I have done…

I have added new plates to my patroons, and have forged out an articulated gorget that fits into my harness, I made a really nice etched one as well with the Gondor Tree and “Tower Guard of the Kind” etched in Elvish below, unfortunately I’m not sure if I will complete it as a gorget as it is larger than my harness will allow.

I have also just completed the roughing of a great helm, not exactly happy with it yet, but I have yet to finish it with brass accents or its crest so maybe it will get better as I finish it.

I just viewed the pourpoint described by Sir Brian, so now I will contemplate creating one of them as well, it hast to be far more comfortable than suspenders. (Thanks Sir Brian)

So with that all being said, I am contemplating my next project with no great news to share yet, hope all of you are well and in good health.

Sir Matthew

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #27 on: 2010-02-09, 00:58:35 »
Glad to see I am not the only one getting busy with off season projects.  I have gathered almost all the material to complete the 16th Century Quilted armor I am going to make.  All I need yet is the thread to sew it with.  I am hoping to begin work this weekend, providing I can get to my parents house to use mother's sewing machine.  The weekend snowstorm prevented that from happening this past weekend.  I hope that this does not upset my timetable too much.

Sir Robert

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Re: Kits on a budget
« Reply #28 on: 2010-02-09, 14:28:04 »
I read about your project along with sir Brian's Pourpoint, I am thinking about making one myself but am thinking mostly about the material- linen or cotton would be most "accurate" but I am thinking about something more like a sport Jersey, you know the fabric with holes in it....its far from accurate but is strong and light as well as would help it breath. I am thinking about August and September mostly, and the padded type would be better in October, and more accurate. I have just completed my 3/4 arms, I actually reused what originally were to be knee cops but actually were sized better for elbows, not fully happy with the lames yet, I think I need to ad a couple more....I may have made them a tad longer as well but I can cut them down if I am going to use a Pourpoint.

I completed my great helm, it looks OK, but it needs the brass accents added still, I have to find some 1/8" soft brass rivets...oh well I have lots of time. I also have to make another for a fellow knight, (its always 2 of everything).

I almost forgot, I also forged out a hand axe, something that Sir Brian had said to me the last day of the PA Faire, he wanted one that looked like one actually used in battle rather than a fantasy design, so simple and purposeful, I also remember a patron dressed as a Monk and carrying a French war-hammer, actually a cavalry war-hammer the as he termed it was a French Can opener, he said this in a fake French accent kind of like the Monty Python castle skit, so I made one with an axe on one side and a armor piercing spike on the other from a museum picture of a hand axe from around 1270.

You know I really have to start posting pictures of all this stuff…I do still need to make the “frog” for the axe so it can be carried and peace tied, but again there is lots of time.

So glad to hear your keeping busy as well, I am looking forward to a spring faire I hope, I believe there may be one in April in Virginia (maybe) I just haven’t looked recently. As a note in that direction, the Wicked Faire is coming up very soon (NJ) but as its at two separate hotels this year I didn’t plan on attending, too bad because it would be nice to see some of you fellows again.