Historical Accuracy of a 14th plate gorget?

[Das Bill]

I think I tend to agree completely with Sir Brian's last statement of historical accuracy, unless you can actually say you were there via some means of time travel, it is impossible to say for sure 100% that an item is period accurate or not.  I have put alot of effort into my Elizabethan soldier kit, and have recieved many compliments on it from people who are familiar with the period, but I would never say that it is 100% accurate.  The best I would say is that it is as accurate as I can find in source material and discussions with other reenactors.  As for where Tim got his info, I can not say and would hate to speculate, though I do know that he does alot of SCA work.

I'm in agreement that very little can be said to be 100% certain. That's true in one's own lifetime, let alone something hundreds of years ago. Having said that, there are still degrees of accuracy. Just because something *could* have existed, doesn't mean it did. All of the material to make an atom bomb have always existed, but there's obviously no evidence of atom bombs being made in the 14th century, and it'd be pretty ludicrous to assume this. That's an extreme angle, but my point is that just because people *could* have done something, doesn't mean it occurred to them to do so.

Getting back to my point: If you want something because you like it, then do it. I have no problems with that. But if we're going to say something was done historically, then there should be proof of that. If there proof is vague, then we should be honest that we're making a guess based on lack of evidence. Otherwise we're lying to ourselves as much as other people.

I'm no historically accuracy Nazi, and I don't do living history. But I have to confess that one of my pet peeves is when speculation is stated as fact. After all, I hated when people spread rumors in middle school about hearsay that was based on anything, so why should history be any different?

[Sir Brian]

Getting back to my point: If you want something because you like it, then do it. I have no problems with that. But if we're going to say something was done historically, then there should be proof of that. If there proof is vague, then we should be honest that we're making a guess based on lack of evidence. Otherwise we're lying to ourselves as much as other people.

I'm no historically accuracy Nazi, and I don't do living history. But I have to confess that one of my pet peeves is when speculation is stated as fact. After all, I hated when people spread rumors in middle school about hearsay that was based on anything, so why should history be any different?

This is really good because I can fully see we are all essentially debating the merits of a two-headed coin insofar as both sides being right but not absolutely correct! I also share your pet peeve of when speculation is stated as fact and I’ve heard far too much of it in everything from the theory of evolution to who really shot JFK. 

It is unfortunate that there is so little genuine physical evidence left of the middle ages. Obscure documents, crude paintings and effigies are pretty much all we have left from that period and they all leave too much of a variance for “embellishment”, of course this doesn’t make me a historical accuracy libertarian either! 

[Sir Edward]

Yeah, that's why I make a point of understanding and being honest about the flaws in my kit. I've gone for a certain visual style, but the mail isn't accurate, nor is the leather, boots, hose, spaulders, etc.

We all have to make certain compromises based on comfort, cost, and availability, as the quest for perfection can certainly send you to the poor house, or the mad house, or both.

[Sir Robert]

Sir Brian

I like your plate gorget, I would not worry about it being period- as we are ripping apart the ideas of "period" armor in another thread, basically no one can really say what was period or not- at least in a basic sense. There were truly astonishing, highly artistic, and finely grafted- almost gothic, helms and armor made in Damascus around 1050 and there are well crafted moorish harness and helmets dating from that time to well after. The point is- it could have been made, and the possibility of your segemented plate gorget being used somewhere in any given time is almost a certainty. Mybe you like the fit, maybe you like older ways, or maybe it was gained on a trip -an adnavement on what was avilible elsewhere. Maybe you had gotton or were nearly injured in the neck or seen many fellows cut down by a deflected blow this way, and decided you wanted to protect yourself. Armor tended to be a bit of personal preferences, a bit of wealth, a bit of experience, and a bit of happenstance.

[Sir Blackwolf]

Milords,

Another consideration in regards to a gorget is, are you fighting in your harness? I wear a hardened leather gorget under my maile coif under my great helm and it has saved my neck (literally) on several occasions. In short, if you are fighting in it, the gorget is one item that one can disregard "historical authenticity" in my opinion.

I am at your service,
Sir Blackwolf

[Sir Brian]

Stormdelver and Sir Blackwolf,

My apologizes good sirs for being so long in reading your replies…I’ve been away from this forum the past few weeks and heavily involved in the beta testing of a new PC game.

I appreciate your perspectives and especially this portion from Stormdelver:

The point is- it could have been made, and the possibility of your segemented plate gorget being used somewhere in any given time is almost a certainty. Mybe you like the fit, maybe you like older ways, or maybe it was gained on a trip -an adnavement on what was avilible elsewhere. Maybe you had gotton or were nearly injured in the neck or seen many fellows cut down by a deflected blow this way, and decided you wanted to protect yourself. Armor tended to be a bit of personal preferences, a bit of wealth, a bit of experience, and a bit of happenstance.

When I was in the army we were allowed certain latitudes in our field equipment, I’m sure not as much as during wartime like the present, but nonetheless there were some overlooked liberties that would enhance our personal preferences for weapons and equipment. I am confident that this general inclination of all fighting men and women to equip themselves with whatever equipment and weapons gives them the confidence to accomplish their job is universal and timeless. 

[Sir William]

I wear what I wear because I like it and I look good in it- or so my wife tells me.  Either way, when I'm garbed up, I feel...different.  Harder to explain than I'm giving credit for, but its like a superhero putting on his costume; I feel stronger, smarter, rougher with a devil-may-care glint in the eye, and a ready hand on the pommel of my sword.  When I can wear one, that is.

[Sir Edward]

I wear what I wear because I like it and I look good in it- or so my wife tells me.  Either way, when I'm garbed up, I feel...different.  Harder to explain than I'm giving credit for, but its like a superhero putting on his costume; I feel stronger, smarter, rougher with a devil-may-care glint in the eye, and a ready hand on the pommel of my sword.  When I can wear one, that is.

I think you'll find that most of us feel this way.

[Sir Brian]

I’m glad this topic was resurrected so I could post this picture I’ve been meaning to take and post but haven’t until very recently. I wanted to demonstrate how difficult it is to see a gorget that is under a maille coif or aventail and therefore not well represented in the available medieval effigies or artwork. 

[Sir Wolf]

true, but there are still inventories out there and they aren't on them.

[Sir Brian]

Ah but I remember in one particular book that referenced a ledger where the King of France back in the 1200's purchased 3000 gorgets for an upcoming campaign...I just have to remember the book! 

I thought it was in my copy of "The Medieval Soldier" by Vesey Norman but it must have been in another book I signed out of the public library...which means I have to go through my previous checkout listings to find it, but I HAVE to now! 

UPDATE:
Ok I think I remember the book title: A knight and his armor by Ewart Oakeshott, I placed it back on hold and should be able to pick it up on my way home this afternoon...(I don't think it's been checked out since the last time I returned it over a year ago!)

[Sir Wolf]

i have this book and will be looking at it today

[Sir Wolf]

pg 26 the writing covers from 13th to 16th century and has the word gorget in there. now we know they are in 15th and 16 centurys but are they in the 13th just from this writing? heehhe.

also have to look at the context and the changing of meanings. is a gorget a heavily padded piece around the neck? what we call a mail aventail off a helmet? a mail standard with or without padding? a neck guard that is attached or un attached to the bottom of some bassinets as seen in funeral effigies? it's a tuff call.

[Sir Brian]

Lol I'm just happy I remembered the right book which vaguely mentions the word gorget...at my age
that is always a positive! 

[Sir Edward]

One of the threads on myarmoury mentioned a padded collar sort of thing. That's a possibility, perhaps?