A suggestion for custom plate armor

[Ian]

That's encouraging at least. But for now, I'm just going to work my way through the armor timeline. Starting out with the 11th century, then progressing to the 14th.

If it makes you feel any better, I've still got a piece being made for my harness and I started it in 2011. 

[Ian]

speaking of which, Jeff sent me this photo this morning!  It's sitting on a plaster cast that Jeff made of me in 2011 that he luckily saved!

[Sir Rodney]

Ian, you have me green with envy!   

My sabatons were semi-custom; made to a tracing of my feet.  To have pair that are truly custom (and beautiful) made by Jeff would be a dream!

[Sir James A]

That's encouraging at least. But for now, I'm just going to work my way through the armor timeline. Starting out with the 11th century, then progressing to the 14th.

It's actually a really good way to do it. You basically keep building off a foundation as you go through the timeline. The only real difference is in the haubergeon vs hauberk, depending how far into the 14th you push.

speaking of which, Jeff sent me this photo this morning!  It's sitting on a plaster cast that Jeff made of me in 2011 that he luckily saved!

He must have some kind of special spots for you. When I talked to him back in 2012 about getting a helmet fit over my gorget, it was a 1 year wait time and I think 2-3 month build time. Very nice!

[Sir Brian]

speaking of which, Jeff sent me this photo this morning!  It's sitting on a plaster cast that Jeff made of me in 2011 that he luckily saved!

OMG they aren't even done yet and they look gorgeous already! 

[scott2978]

So! It's you that Jeff is working on sabatons for! I've been following the discussion about sabaton heel plates and spurs over on AA. Looks from your pic that he's going with a hinged heel plate and rivet articulated lames. I looked at a lot of effigies and brasses trying to determine if they had heel plates and on most it's impossible to be certain. They look smooth like steel but don't have any visible hinge, edge, or buckle. Also they tend to depict the spur covering the intersection of the greave and sabaton heel so there is no marking to determine anything. It does make me wonder about the spurs though because extant spurs don't show any indication of attachment points either.  Not that lack of evidence should be considered evidence in itself, but I find it curious. Very curious.

Will Jeff be putting the hinge inside or outside? He said he saw one extant example from the period that had the hinge on the inside but didn't post any pics. It seems it would be uncomfortable unless you use integral hinges or put it on the outside. After March I have to send my sabs back to get re-strapped, I might get a heel plate if Hildebrandt can work an integral hinge into it, but that would mean new spurs as well... decisions, decisions.

[Sir James A]

So! It's you that Jeff is working on sabatons for! I've been following the discussion about sabaton heel plates and spurs over on AA. Looks from your pic that he's going with a hinged heel plate and rivet articulated lames. I looked at a lot of effigies and brasses trying to determine if they had heel plates and on most it's impossible to be certain. They look smooth like steel but don't have any visible hinge, edge, or buckle. Also they tend to depict the spur covering the intersection of the greave and sabaton heel so there is no marking to determine anything. It does make me wonder about the spurs though because extant spurs don't show any indication of attachment points either.  Not that lack of evidence should be considered evidence in itself, but I find it curious. Very curious.

Will Jeff be putting the hinge inside or outside? He said he saw one extant example from the period that had the hinge on the inside but didn't post any pics. It seems it would be uncomfortable unless you use integral hinges or put it on the outside. After March I have to send my sabs back to get re-strapped, I might get a heel plate if Hildebrandt can work an integral hinge into it, but that would mean new spurs as well... decisions, decisions.

Hinged on the outside. I can see the holes for it.

[Ian]

Yes, I believe they will be hinged on the outside.  They will secure using a pin with a toggle to lock them closed.  I didn't realize there was a discussion on the AA about them, I will have to check that out!

[scott2978]

So! It's you that Jeff is working on sabatons for! I've been following the discussion about sabaton heel plates and spurs over on AA. Looks from your pic that he's going with a hinged heel plate and rivet articulated lames. I looked at a lot of effigies and brasses trying to determine if they had heel plates and on most it's impossible to be certain. They look smooth like steel but don't have any visible hinge, edge, or buckle. Also they tend to depict the spur covering the intersection of the greave and sabaton heel so there is no marking to determine anything. It does make me wonder about the spurs though because extant spurs don't show any indication of attachment points either.  Not that lack of evidence should be considered evidence in itself, but I find it curious. Very curious.

Will Jeff be putting the hinge inside or outside? He said he saw one extant example from the period that had the hinge on the inside but didn't post any pics. It seems it would be uncomfortable unless you use integral hinges or put it on the outside. After March I have to send my sabs back to get re-strapped, I might get a heel plate if Hildebrandt can work an integral hinge into it, but that would mean new spurs as well... decisions, decisions.

Hinged on the outside. I can see the holes for it.

Yes, it might be that the holes are countersunk for flush rivets on the outside, kinda hard to see. It's intruiging that Jeff would mention a historical pair with the hinges on the inside, I've never even imagined doing it like that.

[Sir James A]

Hmm... I meant hinged on the "outside" meaning the hinge on the outside of the foot, rather than the hinge on the outside of the steel (vs inset). I'm not sure if the hinge will be inset or outset.

[scott2978]

Yeah not really important to us I guess.

Hey Ian be sure to let us know how that works out ok!

The whole debate over how the heel plate was done historically is really mind boggling to me. The experts seem to have their opinions, and maybe it's just my noobishness clouding my judgement, but the effigies just don't show any seams at all. Not a single one that I've looked at has a hinge on it. But my logical mind then screams back at me "Then how the hell did he put the thing on?!" I just don't see a grown man getting his foot through the top of a sabaton without separating the front and back somehow. So then why are there no effigies showing a hinge? Or even a seam in the armor for that matter? It just grates on my mind.

[Sir James A]

Yeah not really important to us I guess.

Hey Ian be sure to let us know how that works out ok!

The whole debate over how the heel plate was done historically is really mind boggling to me. The experts seem to have their opinions, and maybe it's just my noobishness clouding my judgement, but the effigies just don't show any seams at all. Not a single one that I've looked at has a hinge on it. But my logical mind then screams back at me "Then how the hell did he put the thing on?!" I just don't see a grown man getting his foot through the top of a sabaton without separating the front and back somehow. So then why are there no effigies showing a hinge? Or even a seam in the armor for that matter? It just grates on my mind.

You can definitely get your foot into a sabaton if the heel plate were one piece. You just stretch your foot "flat", sort of like putting on chausses, and slide it up towards your calf. Then put on and tie your shoe, and let the sabaton come back down. Try it by buckling your sabaton closed and pretending it's one piece. I can do it. However it's far from "natural" and seems impractical, especially with the consideration that there is no real difference in protection to have it hinged or solid.

There are very few pieces of armor that are solid "rounded" shapes: late period fully-wrapped rerebraces and late model couters that enclose the whole arm (like mine). The only one that might be telling is gauntlet cuffs - stick your hands in, stick your feet in - but we are talking entirely different extremities in form and function.

Gorgets are 2+ pieces
Vambraces are 2+ pieces
Cuirasses are 2+ pieces (early churburg is sectional)
Cuisses are 2+ pieces
Greaves are 2+ pieces

Very late period sabatons were sometimes integrated into the greaves:



It still doesn't solve the mystery of the sabaton heel / hinge, and it's already difficult to find pictures of the backs of armor, let alone the feet. It will likely be a topic of discussion for a long time.

[Sir Rodney]

... It still doesn't solve the mystery of the sabaton heel / hinge, and it's already difficult to find pictures of the backs of armor, let alone the feet. It will likely be a topic of discussion for a long time.

Agreed, especially for the 14th century.  I thought I had something to contribute, but after searching through my books, saved images and the Effigies & Brasses web site I came up empty handed.  Scott's quote above is quite accurate and the whole thing is very frustrating.