"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect."
                -- Carl Von Clausewitz

Author Topic: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...  (Read 24268 times)

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
« Last Edit: 2013-09-13, 20:45:02 by Thorsteinn »
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because
« Reply #1 on: 2013-09-13, 16:51:55 »
Sadly, that's not surprising knowing the steel sledgehammers they call 'halberds' and 'falchions' in BotN.
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because
« Reply #2 on: 2013-09-13, 17:01:48 »
Sadly, that's not surprising knowing the steel sledgehammers they call 'halberds' and 'falchions' in BotN.

Yes, indeed. QFT.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because
« Reply #3 on: 2013-09-13, 18:39:12 »
I take it the one who wore it is ok?
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #4 on: 2013-09-13, 20:51:03 »
Yes he's OK what with the suspension harness & whatnot and IIRC that's one of the European guys whom tend to have lower quality steel on their domes, thus why they have more dents in their helms than the US & Canadian teams.

BUT... not for nothing I'm unsure why if I can dent a helm well with a rattan sword that weigh's 3-ish lbs then why is it safe to strike a fencing masked man using a steel sword that weighs 3-ish lbs?

(IE: My 55" SCA greatsword with steel furniture is 3lb 9oz, and my 14 ga SS helm has dents)
« Last Edit: 2013-09-14, 01:26:27 by Thorsteinn »
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #5 on: 2013-09-13, 20:59:18 »
BUT... not for nothing I'm unsure why if I can dent a helm well with a rattan sword that weigh's 3-ish lbs then why is it safe to strike a fencing masked man using a steel sword that weighs 3-ish lbs?

Well, the safety of using a fencing mask is under some debate. But generally, it's considered safe with the appropriate level of control, but not for full-out hard-hitting fights. A lot of folks will use something more substantial for competitions, or when fencing people they're not familiar with.

HEMA/WMA practice with steel generally doesn't use anywhere near the power level that you're used to in SCA. The reasons are two-fold:

1. Such power actually isn't necessary when you're fighting with unarmored techniques. It only takes a modest amount of power for a sharp weapon to deliver an incapacitating blow, particularly in sensitive areas like the face, armpits, etc.

2. Safety, of course. Using a fencing mask with rebated steel simply requires that the participants are controlled and don't strike too hard. But even with a heavier helmet, there are other safety considerations. We're finding that adequate hand-protection is proving to be one of the more challenging aspects, so we have to worry about injuries in other areas too.



Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #6 on: 2013-09-13, 21:03:53 »

BUT... not for nothing I'm unsure why if I can dent a helm well with a rattan sword that weigh's 3-ish lbs then why is it safe to strike a fencing masked man using a steel sword that weighs 3-ish lbs?

(IE: My 55" SCA greatsword with steel furniture is 3lb 9oz, and my 14 ga SS helm has dents)

Your 55'' SCA greatsword has a mass distribution that's equal throughout it's entire length, and has a large hitting surface area.  The only part that doesn't have equal mass distribution is your crossguard (assuming you use one).

A HEMA federschwert has the overwhelming majority of it's mass concentrated in it's hilt.  At least the last 1/3 of the sword and the center of percussion (which hits the hardest due to the node in the standing wave created in the blade), is very flexible so the force is not transmitted to the fencing mask you just hit with it as if it were a solid object with no give and a lot of mass.  The part of the sword that impacts the person has very little mass compared to the overall mass of the sword.   

That's why you can safely hit a fencing mask with a steel federschwert, but you need a 12 gauge steel helm for rattan.  Physics :)
« Last Edit: 2013-09-13, 21:05:05 by Ian »
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #7 on: 2013-09-13, 21:07:08 »
That's why you can safely hit a fencing mask with a steel federschwert, but you need a 12 gauge steel helm for rattan.  Physics :)

That's also a really good answer. :)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #8 on: 2013-09-13, 21:16:23 »
That's why you can safely hit a fencing mask with a steel federschwert, but you need a 12 gauge steel helm for rattan.  Physics :)

That's also a really good answer. :)

Oh I see! So I wouldn't have gnarled fingers if I didn't take that 'physics' to the hand?  ;D
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir Ulrich

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,177
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #9 on: 2013-09-15, 06:06:21 »
Remind me not to take my Dargen Great Helm to a European reenactment, mines only 16 gauge too, which is prolly too thin for fighting but I cant stand things being too heavy. Looks like I'm going to have to find a new helm for fighting practice.

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #10 on: 2013-09-15, 06:16:10 »
Remind me not to take my Dargen Great Helm to a European reenactment, mines only 16 gauge too, which is prolly too thin for fighting but I cant stand things being too heavy. Looks like I'm going to have to find a new helm for fighting practice.

I got 3 decent sized dents in my 16 gauge helmet from one or two bouts of 3 points each and wooden wasters. I think 14 gauge is questionable, 12 gauge ideally; or 14 gauge stainless (since it's a harder steel).
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #11 on: 2013-09-15, 15:45:31 »
Duke Icefalcon, Aesir Armory, Clang Armory, or Windrose are good helm guy's to got to. If you have a great idea and good cash flow then Ugo Serrano's your man.

Ian: My greatsword is the same one I've posted pics of and it balances 19-ish" from the pommel end. I  sadly had to increase the grip length from 11" to 14" because what felt great in my bear hands was not so good in my munition-grade gauntleted ones. So that does make it balance much like a Fendershwert or even just a rebated sword like Albions Maestro Liechtenauer or Epée de Guerre (and mine is lighter but longer than both Albions).

I'm gonna query the BOTN guys I know to see what the stats are on the BKS longswords they use.

BTW: Bpeaking of Albions- If y'all want to ever buy me a Albion sword for HEMA then that Epée de Guerre would make me happy happy. My 35th B-day is in 5 months, the same week that my child is due. :D
« Last Edit: 2013-09-15, 15:57:46 by Thorsteinn »
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #12 on: 2013-09-15, 16:57:03 »
Balance doesn't really matter.  That's just where the forces are evening out, it doesn't say anything about the mass specific at the point of impact of the weapon.  On your rattan, even though it balances close to where a real two-handed sword might balance, the part that you're hitting someone with still contains more mass than the tiny sliver of blade on the business end of a federschwert.

If you smash someone with the hilt of a federschwert using a mortschlag, you'll crack their skull just as efficiently as using a real sword, but since the the blade has so little mass where it counts, and f=ma, the force delivered will be much less than that of a full sized blade with equal balance and performance characteristics.
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #13 on: 2013-09-15, 17:10:57 »
It may contain slightly more mass but it is also striking over a significantly larger area thus your lbs/sqft is very very close to the same, and not every steel tournament that I've seen used Fendershwerts like the one you describe. I would put good money on the nylon swords acting much like a rattan one does for dent potential (Remember I've been using rattan for better than 13 years  and have fought with nylon too) if most agree that Nylon is safer than steel, and nylon is the equal of rattan for damage potential, then "steel for steel".

I have no problem wearing a fencing mask & whatnot for rapier & light duty nylon longsword work, but would you feel comfortable going into a high stakes Steel HEMA tourney wearing one of those masks against a BOTN or SCA guy and then you make him twitch? You very well know how easy it is to develop tremendous power.

Fall down seven, get up eight.

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: Why steel helmets for HEMA steel sword sparing? Because...
« Reply #14 on: 2013-09-15, 19:45:41 »
What does BOTN style fighting have to do with HEMA?  HEMA fighters have been using regular fencing masks with steel weapons since pretty much the dawn of HEMA and people don't get their skulls caved in like BOTN helmets.  The proof is in the pudding.

Weapons designed for HEMA are designed for safety.  The whole reason the federschwert was invented in period was to duplicate the performance, feel and balance of a real sword without hurting anyone for real.  And besides, HEMA technique in sparring matches is not about trying to concuss your opponent like in BOTN.  I'm not sure what your point is then.  You're combining 3 very different sports and playing a what if game.  Sure, you can take a steel HEMA sword, swing it as hard as you can and injure someone wearing a fencing helmet, but that's not what you do in HEMA...

BOTN is about taking a heavy steel crowbar roughly shaped like a medieval weapon and pounding someone into submission or on to the ground.  It's pure apples and oranges.
« Last Edit: 2013-09-15, 19:50:58 by Ian »
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum