Pistol question.

[Thorsteinn]

Anyone here own or use a Hi Point .45 cal pistol?

Thoughts?

[Ian]

They're awfully inexpensive, which I'm always weary of with guns.  From an aesthetic point of view, I think they're ugly as sin.  For not much more $$ you can step up into a Glock, Smith and Wesson M&P, or Springfield XD.  All have polymer frames like the Hi-Point, except they're way more compact and and ergonomic and will fire filthy.  I have experience with both the Glock and S&W M&P and would go to war with either.  They're also more concealable if this would be for CCW purposes, and proven in the reliability arena.  I've never had a single malfunction in my Glock 23 (.40 S&W) and it's concealable, reliable, inexpensive, and has a small rail for tac-lights which imho is a necessity for a night-stand pistol.

Here's nutnfancy's review on the HP 9mm:

[Sir Edward]

I'm a little too spoiled. Expensive tastes, I guess. I'm fond of Sig Sauer.

[Lord Dane]

I'm a little too spoiled. Expensive tastes, I guess. I'm fond of Sig Sauer.

I'm a SIG Sauer certified firearms instructor/armorer. Hoping to be their poster boy someday. My favs are SP2022, P229R both in .40 caliber.

[Sir Wolf]

my next pistol will be a .45 1911. like to get a Springfield or rock island with some serial numbers from the early 40s

[Ian]

I'll vouch for Sig as well.  I was issued a Sig when deployed and preferred it way over the Beretta as a sidearm. I also own a Sig 516 Patrol (their piston driven ar-15) and love that gun.  You will however pay a lot more for a Sig in most cases than a Glock, M&P, or XD if that's the issue.  Why .45 btw?  Modern ballistics and bullet design have put to rest the 'stopping power myth' for quite some time now. You can shoot something just as dead with a high quality 9mm defense round, or if you still want some more 'oomph' a .40 is a lot cheaper to feed than a .45. I own both, my .45 is a Kimber 1911 and gets very little love because .45 ACP is so expensive to plink with.

[Sir Edward]

I'm a SIG Sauer certified firearms instructor/armorer. Hoping to be their poster boy someday. My favs are SP2022, P229R both in .40 caliber.

Very cool. I have a pair of P229's, but neither of them have rails. I should have held out for that, I suppose. But I have one in 9mm (with tritium sights), and one on .40 (with plain irons).

Not only are they reliable, but I found that they fit my hand the best of most of the handguns I've picked up, especially with Hogue grips. I also like their method of "safety" for carry, in the form of a de-cocking lever rather than a hard safety switch. They're always ready, just in double-action for the first shot. But you guys know that.

[Thorsteinn]

If I had the cash I would be going for a 1911, M&P, or XD series gun but I don't.

... and my shooting skills suck.

The reason I want something larger than a 9mm is that I don't want to have to worry about what kind of ammo is in the gun when I shoot the guy. Too many folks I know have had to shoot a whole clip of 9mm into a dude to stop him (in a surprise panic situation your targeting skills can be iffy), so yeah, for ball ammo a 40 or 45 has better one shot stop numbers and less "go through your wall & kill the dude next door" numbers too. 

So I'm stuck with the "9mm will be affordable able to increase my lackluster skills" and the "The meth heads & 1%'ers around here are big dudes" and the "mountain lions and bears like this state" needs.

BTW I've had a p226 pointed at me in anger. It was plenty intimidating then. 

[Sir Edward]

That's what I like about .40 S&W, particularly with hollow points. You can still make nice big holes, but it's almost as cheap as 9mm for practice, and almost as high capacity (for instance, the .40 Sig 229 holds 12+1, and the 9mm version's capacity is 13+1).

Granted, they say that in most life or death situations, it's rare to fire more than 5 or 6 times. But even still, I tend to prefer a weapon that is a little more concealable, cost effective to practice with, and carries just a few extra rounds.

But that's me. I know a lot of people swear by their .45 ACP.

[Ian]

(in a surprise panic situation your targeting skills can be iffy), so yeah, for ball ammo a 40 or 45 has better one shot stop numbers and less "go through your wall & kill the dude next door" numbers too. 

So I'm stuck with the "9mm will be affordable able to increase my lackluster skills" and the "The meth heads & 1%'ers around here are big dudes" and the "mountain lions and bears like this state" needs.

BTW I've had a p226 pointed at me in anger. It was plenty intimidating then. 

9mm will kill someone just as dead.  9mm,  .45 and .40 will all go right through drywall and into your neighbor's house.  .223 from an AR-15 is less likely to penetrate a wall because of fragmentation.  If you really want a home defense weapon, and you're not proficient with firearms, you should be looking at shotguns.  They don't penetrate walls and they're super cheap.  Handguns in the hands of people with poor firearms skills will kill their neighbors and people in other rooms.  I can't recommend using a handgun as a home defense weapon until you're adequately proficient with one.  Once you're at that level, 9mm and .40 are just as effective as .45.  You should never keep your magazines at home loaded with plinker rounds.  I only put ball ammo in my mags if I'm going to the range.  Once I get home everything is re-loaded with defense hollow-points.

[Thorsteinn]

To become proficient with pistols you need a pistol. 

Besides I cannot fire a shotgun w/o my right arm going dead due physiology. (Weird I know, but true)

[Ian]

To become proficient with pistols you need a pistol. 

Besides I cannot fire a shotgun w/o my right arm going dead due physiology. (Weird I know, but true)

Fair enough, but there are plenty of good instructional classes out there offered at most reputable gun ranges that can teach you to at least get started on the path to firearms proficiency.  Just understand that a handgun, any caliber, will penetrate walls with little to no problem.  If you're going to take a shot at someone in your house, you best be aware of the foreground and background of your target, because when you miss, you're bullet will keep going until it finds something. 

Forgive me if I sound a little preachy, but responsible firearm ownership is a pet peeve of mine.  I will continue to beat this dead horse, but a handgun is a poor choice of weapon for home defense if the user is not completely confident with its use.  Obviously, this can be mitigated depending on where you live and who you live with.  If you live by yourself and have no neighbors for 1 mile in all directions, fire away.  If you have roommates, they better know how to react as well if you plan on defending your home with a pistol.  When someone breaks in to your house, chaos ensues, panicked roommates in the next room are behind that wall your bullet's about to go through.  Your neighbor, asleep in his bed, is potentially only separated by 2 walls from the business end of your pistol. 

Pistol calibers FAIL to expand when hitting light targets like drywall.  Most various rifle calibers and shotgun rounds are not as prone to overpenetration.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#OVERPENETRATION

Stopping power is also a huge myth.  No bullet is powerful enough to knock a person back.  People drop when they get shot out of shock, pain, injury, or death.  If a bullet carried enough energy to knock a person back, like in the movies, then it would knock over the person FIRING the gun too.  Newton's third law is pretty clear on this... 

Here's some ballistics gel data.  Notice the 9mm wound is slightly smaller than the .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.  Now transpose those wound patterns on to someone's chest or face, and you'll notice the caliber doesn't matter when it comes to 'stopping power.'  You put that wound in a big man's chest, he's just as dead from a little bullet.

[Thorsteinn]

but there are plenty of good instructional classes out there offered at most reputable gun ranges that can teach you to at least get started on the path to firearms proficiency.

This is Reno/Sparks, Nevada (State pop: 2.7 mil. Metro pop: 350k) . We have 1 indoor range in south Reno (which is fairly expensive), one outdoor open range 20 miles north of Reno, one big range 30 miles east in Fernley, & one open outdoor range 30 miles south in east Carson City. So while there are many gun shops that teach classes at these ranges I figure to knock the rust off, not get new skills.

Most folks in these parts just get a ways outside of town & go shooting there given the amount of open & clear space we have here.

I used to be an OK pistol & rifle shot, but then I used to own a pistol & rifle.

[Sir Edward]

Forgive me if I sound a little preachy, but responsible firearm ownership is a pet peeve of mine.  I will continue to beat this dead horse

You go right ahead. Safety and responsible ownership is a big deal for me as well. If you plan to own firearms, IMHO you really do need to know how to operate it, and be aware of your surroundings in a crisis. These sorts of reminders are always good to see, no matter what your experience level.

[Thorsteinn]

Honestly I think Ian is really advocating for swords, axes, seaxs, & spears for home defense.

No blow through, no over penetration, & no running out of ammo!