Arrows vs. Mail -- was Re: Chainmail on a peasant's budget

[Sir Edward]

Yeah, they wouldn't pierce all the time, and the padding underneath makes mail an effective defense, but it's not 100%.

That video shows them using a wider arrowhead than a bodkin.

And lets not forget, you're still vulnerable where you don't have armor, like your eye (alas, poor Harold)

[Sir William]

Not to mention impact injuries caused by arrow fire...it may not pierce but the force applied can  result in deep bruises and broken bones, even with padding.

[Sir William]

Ulrich, again, they're not using bows as strong as of old and you cannot quantify the hidden injuries accurately because they're using a wooden stump instead of a live body which could provide immediate feedback.

While those arrows may not have pierced, the impact alone could be very painful- imagine the force applied to that very small area where the arrow strikes.  The rings on the hauberk in that video are a deal tighter than the ones I've seen on your shirt for instance, or on mine, but they would not have mitigated the blunt force much.  The gambeson underneath would have, to a degree...but I still think you could end up with a really nasty bruise even if there is no puncturing, which would hamper your breathing and movement, thus, your effectiveness.

[Sir James A]

In regards to piercing plate, there's lots of variables - range, draw weight, arrow quality, steel quality, and for historical armor - where it actually hits the plate. We have "uniform" armor for the most part - a 16 gauge breastplate is 16 gauge everywhere. Historically, it was pounded from blocks, and thick in vital spots, and thinner elsewhere. A single piece breastplate can be 14 gauge in the front and thin out as much as 20 or 22 gauge at the sides. Then you have to account for angles - you need a pretty good angle to hit plate enough to try to pierce, instead of deflecting. Some historical breastplates have "proof marks", where they would shoot it to show that it was bullet "proof".

Is it historically plausible? Under the ideal conditions of all variables, I would say yes, but did it happen frequently? I'd say no.

[Sir William]

And one should remember that when the longbowmen ruled the battlefield, it wasn't due to a handful of archers- but hundreds, sometimes thousands of them.  A good archer could loose anywhere from 10-12 shafts per minute, multiply that by, say, the five thousand that Henry fielded at Agincourt (bolstered by less than a thousand mounted knights and men-at-arms) and you're talking about 50,000-60,000 arrows per minute- even the best made armor might withstand half a dozen impacts but eventually, you can see, based on position and range, why Henry won that battle.  Estimates say that an archer could accurately place a shaft from as far away as 200-300 yards (three whole football fields) - heavily armored and mounted knights had to struggle uphill to get to them and archers just loosed shaft after shaft in among them.  A prickly killing field if you will.

[Sir Ulrich]

After seeing that video now I want 16 gauge maille thats arrow proof though for now I'm gonna have to make due with the maille I got though. 18 gauge is still good and lasts long but I think it would be less arrow proof than 16 gauge. I think earlier maille was thicker and as time passed in the medieval age in the later period it was made thinner as it wasn't the primary defense. Also could of regionally varied, there were 3 types of rivets I know were used, wedge, round, and staple like rivets, god only knows what else could of been used and how much it varied. Thats what I DON'T like about modern armor actually, it's all too uniform and a lot of it lacks the hand made quality of actual medieval armor unless you get it custom made.

[Sir William]

You have to realize, back then, that armor was costly and considered precious.  There weren't any 'off the rack' hauberks to be had- each one would've been made to fit a specific warrior, unless of course it was taken from a corpse on the battlefield but even then, it was made to fit that man, or the man who he himself took it from at some point.

Also, there is no such thing as arrow-proof mail, no matter what gauge the wire is...at least, not historically speaking.  I'm sure it could be made now.

I'm also in agreement with regard to modern mail however- most of us would never be able to afford a tailored hand-linked hauberk...in talking with Erik Schmid, who is one of the considered-premier mail artisans, I have learned that such a commission would run in the $5k range.  I don't have the time or wherewithal to discuss inflation rates or how much was paid for a single one way back then but I do know that the cost of a full harness would've run you what you'd normally pay now for a higher end Mercedes (no less than $50k to start).

If that were still the case, none of us would be wearing armor, or at least, not the collection some of us have acquired over the years. 

[Sir Ulrich]

Generally most combat grade maille is 18 gauge while the round ring stuff is typically 16 gauge. Not sure which is stronger but I prefer the flat stuff just because it looks better. I still say the half riveted half non is stronger than all riveted when it comes to arrows due to the solid rings having no weak point where the rivet is. Thing is thats what I initially wanted till I realized I couldn't find any, except GDFB and that would require LOTS of tailoring, thats what I DON'T like about modern maille; the lack of tailoring. Leads to excess weight as well as bingo wings, which I got to fix on my own hauberk though it isn't nearly as bad as other maille I've seen.

I checked out Erik's site and I must say I am IMPRESSED by his maille http://www.erikdschmid.erikds.com/ I can tell the riveted rings are made of iron and not steel as they have a somewhat blackish tinge while the solid rings are probably punched from a steel plate due to their lighter color. I hope the future we will have maille of this quality (or looks) available for sale in the affordable range. The main thing is iron forge welds better than steel so the rivets typically merge with the ring making it stronger, at least thats my own theory on why indian maille looks nothing like the real deal. Though the later century stuff somewhat resembles indian made maille and I've seen a coif that DOES look like indian made wedge riveted maille.

[Sir William]

Unless they come up with a machine that can do the links, and mass produce it, mail will continue to be a manual process and as such, quite expensive.  As with all things desirable, you get what you pay for.

[Sir Edward]

Erik Schmidt is one of the few people who really goes the extra mile to make it highly authentic. I think he's one of the only ones who makes museum-grade replica mail.

[Sir Ulrich]

I swear one of these days I am gonna get a hauberk from him, Just gotta put some money aside for it. I am VERY impressed by the quality of his work. He should open a factory somewhere in India and make more using cheaper labor, or at the very least sell some rings so I could make my own. I am way too obsessed with maille for my own good though >_>

[Sir Wolf]

hehehe i handled one. even had one on. owned by jesse bailey of georgia. it was wayyyyyyyy cool and wayyyyyyyyyyyyy expensive

[Sir Rodney]

Sir Ulrich, you have some very fine tastes in mail!  Erik Schmid is considered one of the best mail reproducers alive, if not THE best.  There's a reason Robert MacPherson used Schmid mail in his armours.   

I'm envious of Sir Wolf for having the opportunity to try on some of Erik's mail.  I've only had a brief chance to view his work.  Erik can occasionally be found at the MN Ren Fest, another fine Minnesota boy making armour.    

[Sir William]

I swear one of these days I am gonna get a hauberk from him, Just gotta put some money aside for it. I am VERY impressed by the quality of his work. He should open a factory somewhere in India and make more using cheaper labor, or at the very least sell some rings so I could make my own. I am way too obsessed with maille for my own good though >_>

Ahhh, but then it wouldn't be his work...it would be the equivalent of Hanwei/Tinkers when you're looking for an actual Tinker- it'll be serviceable, based on his designs, but it won't be his if you know what I mean.

Still, I've spoken with Erik a time or two on SFI and he actually told me that I would be better off making my own than waiting in his queue...no idea how long it is or what have you but I took that to mean he wanted no other business at that time.  This is going back about 7 years so I'm sure things have changed...good or bad, I have no clue.  I still check his site from time to time for updates.

[SirNathanQ]

And one should remember that when the longbowmen ruled the battlefield, it wasn't due to a handful of archers- but hundreds, sometimes thousands of them.  A good archer could loose anywhere from 10-12 shafts per minute, multiply that by, say, the five thousand that Henry fielded at Agincourt (bolstered by less than a thousand mounted knights and men-at-arms) and you're talking about 50,000-60,000 arrows per minute- even the best made armor might withstand half a dozen impacts but eventually, you can see, based on position and range, why Henry won that battle.  Estimates say that an archer could accurately place a shaft from as far away as 200-300 yards (three whole football fields) - heavily armored and mounted knights had to struggle uphill to get to them and archers just loosed shaft after shaft in among them.  A prickly killing field if you will.

One should remember in the "Great Longbow Battles" of Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt, they all were decided by the melee as much as the arrows. Also, the value of a longbowman wasn't in his ability to kill knights, but to break the heavy charge (Which was extremely deadly to infantry until the advent of the pike) due to shooting down horses (which were largely unarmoured)
Also, there are numerous accounts of maille protecting knights from arrows (Fired from both longbows and the more efficient compound bows of the Muslims)
The evidence in period literature shows many more instances of maille protecting against arrows than not.