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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Brian on 2013-05-10, 12:59:50
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I am sorely tempted to replace my aventail on my bascinet with a more authentic/expensive riveted aventail; however the pickings are a bit slim. Anyone have any recommendations? – Oh did I mention I want mine all flat brass riveted rings? – Just because I like to be different AND difficult. ;)
I have a line on getting the brass rings and if I must I’ll make my own but only if I can’t buy or commission it for a reasonable price, less than $300.00
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I haven't seen any in brass before, but there's a few places you can get riveted brass rings (Historic Enterprises is where I got mine - Cap-A-Pie also has them). Just a heads up, the Historic Enterprises brass rings come with steel rivets and not brass; don't know why and they're so tiny you can't see, but just wanted to disclaim that.
Have you thought about a regular mild steel riveted one, painted with brass colored paint?
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I haven't seen any in brass before, but there's a few places you can get riveted brass rings (Historic Enterprises is where I got mine - Cap-A-Pie also has them). Just a heads up, the Historic Enterprises brass rings come with steel rivets and not brass; don't know why and they're so tiny you can't see, but just wanted to disclaim that.
Have you thought about a regular mild steel riveted one, painted with brass colored paint?
Hey thanks for the heads up on Cap-A-Pie! I didn’t know about them. They also have the steel rivets but do offer the brass in 6mm rings so I might go for them. :)
I don’t think the paint would work since maille is self-cleaning and would likely rub off any paint. :-\
Then again it might be cheaper and faster if I just work with an entire sheet of maille, sure it’s welded but certainly less time consuming and reasonably priced to boot. ;)
http://mailletec.com/node/67 (http://mailletec.com/node/67)
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a sheet of mail won't help you with an aventail. you need to make expanding rows to the rows will flair out and make a circle. i haven't seen a entire brass one before. just brass edges
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This doesn't help with the brass issue, but one way to do an aventail is to cut down a coif. It's mostly the same thing anyway, with the helm replacing the upper part of the coif.
It might be easier to do that and then brass-edge it with a few rows or something.
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a sheet of mail won't help you with an aventail. you need to make expanding rows to the rows will flair out and make a circle. i haven't seen a entire brass one before. just brass edges
So you don't think it would work for me to use my removed existing aventail as a rough pattern to cut away the excess links? - Makes me want to try it first on some other excess material just to prove if that is a sound theory or not. ;)
This doesn't help with the brass issue, but one way to do an aventail is to cut down a coif. It's mostly the same thing anyway, with the helm replacing the upper part of the coif.
It might be easier to do that and then brass-edge it with a few rows or something.
I've consider this as well and may end up doing it this way for a mild steel one with brass edges. :-\
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lol no, if you look carefully at the rows on your aventail you will see some rows have an extra ring here and there. this allows the mantle to open up.
a coif will already have this expanding row. so if you cant find an aventail, get a coif and cut the top out of it. :) it's the same thing
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I am sorely tempted to replace my aventail on my bascinet with a more authentic/expensive riveted aventail; however the pickings are a bit slim. Anyone have any recommendations? – Oh did I mention I want mine all flat brass riveted rings? – Just because I like to be different AND difficult. ;)
I have a line on getting the brass rings and if I must I’ll make my own but only if I can’t buy or commission it for a reasonable price, less than $300.00
Sir Brian, not sure if you are motivated to make one but brass rivoted maille rings by the 1,000 package is pretty cheap at medieval-fightclub. I bought to tailor the edging on my black ring maille.
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oooooooooooooo dare dare dare!!!!!!!!!!!
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I am sorely tempted to replace my aventail on my bascinet with a more authentic/expensive riveted aventail; however the pickings are a bit slim. Anyone have any recommendations? – Oh did I mention I want mine all flat brass riveted rings? – Just because I like to be different AND difficult. ;)
Sir Brian, it appears the jolly old sailor in you is showing through! Personally, I think the brass would look EPIC on your kit, but then again I'm a bit biased as I am a jolly old sailor too and I want brass anywhere and everywhere I can! ;D
As Sir Wolf said, expansion rows are critical to getting a coif to lay right. It's much the same as a cappa clausa, period liripipe hood, or any other kind of cowl. It's basically a circle opening with a larger circle on the perimeter. Here's a drawing of the top of a coif, with a central ring, if you just "expand" that with a neck hole instead it's much the same as an aventail or coif. (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/farisles/guilds/armour/mail_f14.gif)
If you were to use only a strip rectangle that was parallel and equilateral on the two longer sides and shorter sides, it would wrap around and leave a big triangle opening. I wish my camera would work so I could post pics of everything since I did that as an experiment (why not sort of way) when I was making my gallowglass coif. For that one, the mantle ended up being four very large trapezoids, it created the "corners" seen in the effigies as well. A standard coif, aventail, mantle has expansions basically dispersed throughout to make it fit right. (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/farisles/guilds/armour/mail_f15.gif)
Here's a great resource I've used almost as a bible of sorts for all my mail work:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/farisles/guilds/armour/mail.htm#sect4-1 (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/farisles/guilds/armour/mail.htm#sect4-1)
also all the drawings I have posted come from his site. Excellent resource. Pay special attention to the "expansion" section. It's kinda confusing when you start, but makes more sense as you go.
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i always hated the 5 triangles at the top. i always did it the other way. made the expanding rows from the very center. ;)
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Since you're doing an aventail, and not a coif, the top expanding rows don't matter. You can get some outer expansion by having the rows at the helmet pulled in tightly and leaving the bottom loose, but not a whole lot - think of it as tightening the top of a mail fauld.
I think a sheet could be very useful. What I would do is get the sheet as wide as the bottom row of links, figure out the contraction ratio you want, and then start to cut a "wedge" at even intervals around the sheet, from top to almost the bottom. Then go back and close them up as contraction rows. Instead of working "forwards" by trying expansion rows, work "backwards" with contractions.
So start with this:
------------------------------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
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Then kinda like this:
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
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Row by row, of course, but that's the gist of it. Then you'll be closing up those wedges you cut out by passing the lower part of the link through 1 extra link than the row above it; 1 top 2 bottom, or 2 top 3 bottom.
It'll still be tedious, but not as much as doing it from scratch.
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...OR...
As a variation of your earlier suggestion Sir James, I could get a steel riveted coif/aventail and then have it brass plated locally! ;)
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i think we have a wiener. err winner
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...OR...
As a variation of your earlier suggestion Sir James, I could get a steel riveted coif/aventail and then have it brass plated locally! ;)
da-da-duh! ;D
why hadn't we thought of that sooner!? any chance does electroplating work on something as complex as riveted mail?
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Yeah, any time you join triangles instead of doing expansions, it's really obvious where the pattern shifts. Your eye gets drawn to the seams. With proper expansion rings, the pattern is continuous and uninterrupted.
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Duke Icefalcon offers brass wedge riveted maille. Perhaps you could ask him to get you an aventail made out of it as a custom order. Might take a while but if you can wait I'm pretty sure he could.
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I'm leaning towards Master Knuut's welded stainless steel aventail. He has them in stock and they are reasonably priced. ;)
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you know Sir Brian, from five feet away or more, which is a nice distance with strangers at faires and such ;D I have a hard time seeing riveted vs butted vs welded and I know what to look for! I'm a fan of welded, sure it's new, but man can they be strong, and stainless?! "forgettaboutit!"
btw, in honor of Sir Wolf always pestering me about personal pictures, it dawned on me I had these from last Christmas and thought I'd share them here:
(http://media-cache-ec4.pinimg.com/192x/48/85/4d/48854d2e4d50c72edb391f969d759053.jpg) it's me in my butted mail coif for a Gallowglass impression. My lady figured out how to get it to lay properly at the angles, it's four hexagons seamed together :o of course it took me about a dozen different tries and ideas before I listened to her ;D
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/192x/d2/1b/65/d21b65f2dd2f833dc1c959512305c8ec.jpg)
it'd be the only time I'd recommend doing the "triangle" technique of expansions, and even then, it's for a deliberate purpose. The basic expansions that I described earlier, they aren't that difficult to get once you get going so to speak, they're really coming in handy on my chausses
Hope you're happy Sir Wolf :P ;D
YIS
B. Patricius
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Sir Brian,
Marcus of Cap-a-pie is an acquaintance of mine.He used to offer a mail tailor service. ;)
G.
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Cap-a-pie? I've ogled their wares for the better part of a year now...good looking stuff.
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Sir Brian,
Marcus of Cap-a-pie is an acquaintance of mine.He used to offer a mail tailor service. ;)
G.
Good to know and thanks Sir Gerard! Does he actually make all his maille? I will send him an inquiry. Although I am a bit conflicted as I think I will have to decide upon one major purchase for the remainder of this year (budget cuts and sequestration, etc.) and I’m leaning more towards finally getting my wisby gauntlets not only for my kit but WMA as well. :-\
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I’m leaning more towards finally getting my wisby gauntlets not only for my kit but WMA as well. :-\
mmm, that's a tough one Sir Brian. I know it doesn't mean much, but I'd go with the gauntlets personally. As you already stated the functionality of them really comes in handy. They're being allowed for SCA combat now too, since people have been hiding good padding between the glove and the plates ;) I desperately need my hands, but I've always loved those gaunts. Now, I can have both and breathe easy.
Also, have you heard of 3turretsarmoury? He's a small shop (one guy) out of Ontario, CA that has been making a storm over on the AA with his Wisby gauntlets. He also sells them in kit form, but the steel parts are already formed, planished and polished!
(http://3turretsarmoury.info/images/1285614102872554634700.jpeg)
That may be a way for you to cut the costs. It's the route I'm going, if anything because I enjoy creating my own kits but I don't have the means to work with steel at the moment. Here's a link, directly to his kits: http://3turretsarmoury.info/Wisby-Gauntlet-Kit-001.htm (http://3turretsarmoury.info/Wisby-Gauntlet-Kit-001.htm) Like I said, he's a small shop, and when I first found him I wasn't sure until I realized who he was on the AA.
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Thanks for the link B. Patricius. I had them in my ‘armor favorites’ for awhile now and his kit is a good deal monetarily but one should also consider the time required to complete the project which I have a lot less of and personal experience has shown me hand stitching leather is never fun. :-\
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd251/Tah908/WIP/SizeComparison.jpg)
So I’m leaning more towards this Armorer:
http://www.crimsonforge.com/ (http://www.crimsonforge.com/)
I haven’t made any serious inquiries about production times or anything but I do like the look and pricing of their products. :)
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Sounds fair enough to me! After doing something once, it's always easier to say "nah, I'll pay someone else now!" in case it didn't work out quite as fun. Still a character building experience according to my Dad, but if it isn't fun, I'm definitely a fan of just getting it over and done with too. I'm also grateful for my earlier kit... mittens are far less complicated than fingered gloves ;)
great looking gloves btw
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Sir Brian got some serious patience there. I know sewing the mail on the mitten was bad enough, but each finger wow?
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Pain staking process Sir Brian. Hope it comes out as planned. Currently working on a new pair of ailettes for my black knight crusader look.
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no no, that is a picture from like 3 or 4 years ago! I still wear those gauntlets but I wear the leather demi-gauntlets over them and those gloves are now pretty much black! :)
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no no, that is a picture from like 3 or 4 years ago! I still wear those gauntlets but I wear the leather demi-gauntlets over them and those gloves are now pretty much black! :)
Black?? Not 'blue' as Sir Edward will make claim like when leaving his mark upon you. ;D lol
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Nah, the only time I aim for his hands are when he already has a broken finger.
"I swear! It was like that already!" :)
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Nah, the only time I aim for his hands are when he already has a broken finger.
"I swear! It was like that already!" :)
Well I only saw evidence of a 'blackened thumb' not a 'broken finger'. So perhaps you are boasting slightly (but then again...Sir Brian does prefer 'hand deflection' as opposed to 'blade blocking' I hear). ;D lol
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Hey that is a valid technique that Sir Edward taught me...
...err
...Hey wait a minute! ;)
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I've been meaning to ask you all this, and I hope it's okay with Sir Brian, but what kind of gauntlets do you normally use for WMA/HEMA training nowadays? Back when I trained it was all lacrose or street hockey gloves. Effective at protection, but bulky and clumsy at first
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Lacrosse are fine for even steel combat. :)
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Cool, that's what I was hoping.
I remember when Purpleheart was a small business and I met the guy at the SoCal renfaire, the swords were so nicely balanced we decided right then and there we'd start working with them. We never went all out though with steel because we never got the rest of our armour together for it, and I was hesitant to be the guinea pig and try it.
thanks for the head's up! I'm debating on making my mittens large enough to hide my lacrosse gloves I still have. Brother Amos the Pious over on the AA looks great in his kit with his.