Creating a society/order?

[Sir Patrick]

Say, when is our order going to get a link on the forum's links page?

[Sir Edward]

Say, when is our order going to get a link on the forum's links page?

Hah! Good catch. I'll go add it.

[SirNathanQ]

Well, as the resident to-be squire, I would like to make a proposition on the status of squire.

Has the ability to vote and be active in the order. However, similar to the confirmation of a knight, the to-be squire must get the support of 2 existing knights, and get it through the KC. There would be a very simple, and since the squire had already got the confirmation and support of 2 knights and the KC, the squire is eligible to become a knight via normal ceremony w/ the supporting knights and KC anytime they want upon reaching the age of majority (18). There would also be a (not a requirement, but expectation) to have been in the order as an initiate for a time until one feels they are ready to petition for becoming a squire. Also, the squire would not be regarded as any less than any of the other knights, since the squire had to go through the same approval process as they did. Basically it is a knight that hasn't reached the age of majority. Also a squire wouldn't be eligible to serve as KC or his backup, since they are under the age of majority.Squires wouldn't be able to wear gilded spurs. Squire would have the option of wearing silver spurs, which would be presented to him by his sponsors in the same way the knights are presented gilded ones (these will be swapped out for gilded spurs during the knighting ceremony). The ceremony would simply be the presentation of the silvered spurs, and maybe some words, but that's it.

It's basically a recognition of the chivalric values that make someone a knight in a person under the age of majority. They function as knights, (except for the KC and back-up part) are recognized as equals of the knights, go by the same expectations as knights.
Simply knights without the official title and the gold on the spurs.
BTW, kit standards are the same as with knights. (and obviously they can't sponsor people)

So to sum it up, it's a person who has passed all the qualifications to be a knight (kit, chivalry, sponsors, morality, ect), but is under 18. That's why a squire would be eligible to become a knight upon reaching the age of 18. Attaining the rank of squire shows that one has already proved themselves worthy of knighthood.

Whoo! okay, what do you all think?
Comments, criticisms, concerns?   

[Sir Edward]

I think it sounds pretty good. Anyone else have opinions on it? So far it sounds good. One note about the spurs-- do we want to gift someone with spurs twice? Perhaps that should be saved for knighting to make it more special. Just a thought, but I'd like to hear what others think too.

Of course, there could always be a set of "loaner spurs" that get passed down to whoever the next squire is.

BTW, I also added an Order-only section on the forum. Everyone on the roster page should have access to it. There's not a lot that needs to be there yet, but I wanted to make sure I had it all configured.

[SirNathanQ]

I was thinking that upon knighting the gilded spurs would replace the silver ones. An alteration to the knighting ceremony, where before the gilded set is put on the new knight, the silvered pair would be taken off. And I think the spurs going back to the order wouldn't be a too bad Idea.

Kinda cool symbolism, in that while you are a squire, the outward signs of your knighthood do not belong to you, that you are a squire to the order (instead of an individual knight) whom is giving you this privilege. But when you become a knight, you actually own the set, that while still given to you by the order, show that it's a more independent status. Also gives it a sense of permanence. That you actually own this pair, and will hang on to it for life.

anyway, I'm glad Sir Ed approves of my squire draft. Spent over an hour drawing that up 

[Sir Wolf]

anyway, I'm glad Sir Ed approves of my squire draft. Spent over an hour drawing that up 

well then it sucks and we can't use it ehhehehe jkjk

[Sir James A]

I think Sir Nathan's squire description is excellent.

I agree on the silver spurs, swapped for gilded ones, should go into the Order's "assets", and be given to the next person who becomes a squire, and when they are knighted, back to the order, and so on. That way, we won't need to buy a (potentially large, relatively speaking) number of silver spurs.
(I typed that same idea and hit submit, then it said there are new posts. )

[Sir Matthew]

I find Sir Nathan's proposition satisfactory. I think that for a youth he shows alot more clear thinking than most adults I meet.

[Sir Patrick]

Agreed wholeheartedly.

[Sir Edward]

Excellent, I'll look into working it into the by bylaws/charter.

Looking at what we have so far, a couple of questions still remain that we didn't flesh out:

 * Is there a minimum amount of time that should be required before someone becomes a knight/squire? If so, how long?

 * Breaking a deadlocked vote. I wrote down to ideas in the bylaws. One is to double the KC's vote so he is the tie-breaker. The other is to invalidate the KC's vote, so the vote is decided by the rest of the knights. This latter one appeals to me in the sense that it helps to decentralize. However, it carries the irony that whoever/whatever the KC voted for (in the deadlocked vote) is the side that loses. In the former, his is the side that wins.

[Sir William]

I think I'm in agreement w/everyone else here.  As for the KC...interesting proposition...that the KC's vote be FYI only rather than carrying weight leaving the onus on the rest of the knights to transact whatever business is at hand.  It is an interesting idea...I guess maybe we can wait and see what situations come up where this would come in handy with the caveat being we'll go with the one that best suits the situation and that'll become the Rule?

[Sir James A]

I think the KC vote should carry double the weight in the event of a tie. Historically the knights would generally follow the KC's orders, but beyond that, it's not a "permanent" position, and if changes to the bylaws require a 2/3 majority vote, that makes it impossible to even be a deciding factor in bylaw changes anyway.

Or maybe instead of just needing 2 sponsors to be knighted, you need 2 members to sponsor you for a vote, and the membership votes in a poll as Yay, Nay, or Opt out (if they don't know the person, conflict of interest, etc) to decide if they are knighted?

As for minimum amount of time, I think we poked at it a bit before. Some people will do more to contribute or grow in 6 weeks than others will in 6 months. Since they need sponsors to join, and sponsors to be knighted, a time requirement might not be necessary. I think the most important aspects are being a good fit for the Order and a good period-ish presentation (soft or armored).

[SirNathanQ]

Haha, thank you all for the kind comments. Especially Sir Wolf. Straight to the heart man     
And yeah, I really am not a fan of my generation. That's why I study history, run amok in period garb with like minded people, and join chivalrous orders instead of playing Xbox or.....no, wait... that's the ONLY thing kids do.   
And I think that there shouldn't be a technical amount of time that one has to spend in the order to become a knight or squire. HOWEVER, the knights of the order and KC should watch that. As long as they feel that they know without a doubt that this person is worthy of knighthood, then go for it. 
What I hope will happen is that the order members will be stingy with their sponsorships, and the KC will really take a look at each applicant before approval. In practice, this should effectively stop anyone from advancing early, as the KC can simply decide that this person isn't ready for knighthood.
I am hoping that the time it takes for 2 knights to determine a person's chivalric merit will not permit any 1month trips to knighthood.
And I support the KC's vote counting as 2. I am assuming that the leader of the order will make good decisions in the interest of the order. After all, there is a reason that a person is elected KC right? I'd like to think that he's proven himself worthy to be able to make some decisions. We have to remember, this is in the case of the exception, not the rule. He won't be deciding what everyone and their brother-in-arms will be doing on a daily basis.   

[Sir William]

Wait a minute there, Squire Nathan- I play XBox, and PS3, and PSP and computer games...surely you're not lumping me in with the rest of them?  LOL

I'm not sure what that says about me, but a good number of my friends and I regularly engage in video games...although they've talked me into the online aspect which I've steadfastly avoided til now.  It IS a lot of fun and keeps us in-house (as opposed to running about, visiting bars and seedier places lol) where our womenfolk can keep an eye on us!

I agree on the sponsorships being made of worthy individuals, not just interested individuals...but how do we do that and avoid the elitist tag?  Actually, we'll appear elitist to most outsiders- we've joined an Order while they have not...and I'm not all that concerned about such things, but I realize that others are.

[SirNathanQ]

Of course not Paladin. I was making a reference to the crowd that does nothing but those games. I actually know people who have played a game for 48 hours straight. And in my bloody high school, social status is determined by how many kills you have at this, or your score at that. I only own a PS2, and never play the thing. Games just never appealed to me. My biggest beef is that alot of these people aren't interested in anything else. And it just seems a waste to me. I always had to do it for real. But that's just me.

And I personally don't care either, if some people cannot stand that this order has some standards, of which they may or may not meet, then that's their problem. Really, just trying to uphold the tenants of chivalry (much less becoming a knight and joining an order!) is often viewed as elitist. Because holding oneself to a higher standard is OBVIOUSLY elitist.
and really, it's not elitist. It's just simply ensuring that our knights are people who reflect that status in their day-to-day lives.