Historical Accuracy of a 14th plate gorget?

[Sir William]

Sir Brian's picture kind of lends some credence to the idea of a gorget being worn; I know in effigies I've looked at, I've always noticed how the neck area seemed overly thick and large...I'm thinking of the Black Prince's effigy at the moment; maybe it is artistic license but it could just as well been some form of armament at the neck.

[Sir Edward]

Yeah, it's hard to say... it could also just be the way the mail hangs down straight from the head instead of conforming to the neck.

[Sir William]

That's probably it.

[Sir Brian]

UPDATE:
Ok I think I remember the book title: A knight and his armor by Ewart Oakeshott, I placed it back on hold and should be able to pick it up on my way home this afternoon

pg 26 the writing covers from 13th to 16th century and has the word gorget in there. now we know they are in 15th and 16 centurys but are they in the 13th just from this writing? heehhe.

also have to look at the context and the changing of meanings. is a gorget a heavily padded piece around the neck? what we call a mail aventail off a helmet? a mail standard with or without padding? a neck guard that is attached or un attached to the bottom of some bassinets as seen in funeral effigies? it's a tuff call.

Ok I checked that part as well and that isn’t the book I have the vague recollection that mentioned a ledger of purchased equipment for an upcoming campaign. – I remember it was a document dated to the mid to late 13c and listed 3000 gorgets purchased along with other arms and equipment for the King of France.
*sigh* getting old sucks! 

[Sir William]

Who's getting old?  I'm getting BETTER w/time. 

[Lord Dane]

Believe me I’m very content with my harness being within the ninety percentile group and for all practical purposes that much is even an excess since I only utilize it for renfaire garb for now. 

Then again well intentioned and civilized divergence has always been an incentive for me to delve deeper into the research material. It is the company and opinion of such an esteemed gathering as on this forum that helps me solidify a vague and possibly contentious concept into a more precise perception for which I am grateful for all who participates in this discussion. 

If I was to summarize, my opinion of all historical accuracy conceptions (and in some cases preconceptions) it would simply be that no one should ever make the claim of an item being 100% historically accurate unless they invented a time machine and travelled back to the period in question and fabricated that item utilizing all the methods, tools and materials of the time period, otherwise all other claims of historical accuracy really are just subjective. 

I share your sentiments, Sir Brian (even if my comments are a late addition to this string). I personally like your harness and if it works for your persona even if there is no factual basis or historical reference, so be it. It looks good and fits a historical pattern that did exist at one point. None except those of the time period can actually attest to what was, only to what we presume to be a standard of armor wearers of the period. Even if researchers find factual basis, historical authenticity is not always "accurate" as we find more about of our past (or in essence, reminded of things we actually did practice at one point in time).

Armorers could only do what they had the skill to do (w/ the materials they had at their disposal) but those with the skill could invent wonders for those with the right coin even in early days. Even historical effigies are not going to give every account or historical depiction of what may have existed in a specific time period, but it can always be inferred as possible unless ruled out completely...

I try to make my persona a mix between myself and what was time period, and reflect it both in my armor kit and weapons. I prefer to make my persona more factual or historical than LARP-like or fantasy-based (which could pretty much go anywhere your imagination can take you). Just some food for thought, and like anything else, it's my opinion and subject to scrutiny. It's trying to find a balance between who you are as an individual and the depiction of who you are trying to portray that makes your look come together.

Historians are always going to scrutinize as scientists do over accuracy but artisians who respect the skill will just look on your armor kit as either a "creative wonder" or a "common-place piece" (as most everyday on-lookers will). Either case, it looks good and fits you perfectly so why contest what works.  

[Joshua Santana]

My take is this, historical evidence for a gorget in the 14th Century has not yet poped up.  One can make the argument that the effigy of the Black Prince wearing a gorget under the aventail. 

However, in regards to safety, if I were fighting in my (soon to come 14th Century Kit Crecy-Poitiers Era) Kit with aventail, I would use a leather or wool gorget to protect my neck.  (I salute Sir Blackwolf for pointing the value of such protection).  The reason is safety, in regards to historical accuracy, the possibility stands there but evidence is needed. 

A metal gorget would be unlikely under the aventail.  But it is a good idea. 

[Sir Wolf]

i personally think he is wearing a padded aventail under his mail aventail.

[Joshua Santana]

I second Sir Wolf's proposition!

[Lord Dane]

I tend to agree about it being padded under the aventail. Plate and leather would be unlikely. The padding would make the most sense under the maille and can best explain the way it settles differently on the head out towards the shoulders.

[Ian]

A metal gorget would be unlikely under the aventail.  But it is a good idea.

A metal gorget under an aventail would render the aventail useless.  There's no reason to have a maille aventail over a plate gorget.  The plate gorget would suffice on its own, the maille would just break if smashed against rigid plate beneath.  I believe that maille aventails were for the most part worn either on top of, or attached to a padded aventail, much like the combination of haubergeon and aketon at the time.

Once plate gorgets start to appear, the aventail goes away,  as can be seen with the emergence of the white harness and with it the Great/Grand Basincets ca. Agincourt that use a rigid neck defense.

[Sir James A]

i personally think he is wearing a padded aventail under his mail aventail.

Agreed. Mail without padding, especially around the neck, seems borderline suicidal.

Once plate gorgets start to appear, the aventail goes away,  as can be seen with the emergence of the white harness and with it the Great/Grand Basincets ca. Agincourt that use a rigid neck defense.

Excellent point! The only thing I can think of is the Italian harnesses where they had a mail standard attached to the bottom of the armet. I've always wondered what they had underneath of that, since it's very close-fit and wouldn't have much space for padding, and I haven't seen any extant harnesses in that style with a collared plate gorget either.

[Joshua Santana]

Exactly, Sir Ian is correct on the Agincourt Great Bascinets and why padded collar gorgets were more likely added underneath the mail aventail.  Glad we are on the same conclusion!

[SirNathanQ]

My take on historicity is this, I won't do it (almost always) if I can't find SOME evidence from the period for every thing but the most miniscule (or hidden  ) details.
Looking through effigies, discriptions, and artwork, one can find evidence of almost anything, especially in the 14th century, and if one is willing to cross a regional border.
For the issue at hand (4 years ago to the OP...) I would label it a very beleivable historical plausability. No concrete evidence, but a few textual references, and conforms with the stylistic and practical elements of armour at the time.
Also we must remember that a gorget could be anything from a brigndine shaped rigid defence, or little more than a glorified scarf. Terms were relative and flexable in the period.

[Ian]

My take on historicity is this, I won't do it (almost always) if I can't find SOME evidence from the period for every thing but the most miniscule (or hidden  ) details.
Looking through effigies, discriptions, and artwork, one can find evidence of almost anything, especially in the 14th century, and if one is willing to cross a regional border.
For the issue at hand (4 years ago to the OP...) I would label it a very beleivable historical plausability. No concrete evidence, but a few textual references, and conforms with the stylistic and practical elements of armour at the time.
Also we must remember that a gorget could be anything from a brigndine shaped rigid defence, or little more than a glorified scarf. Terms were relative and flexable in the period.

But Nathan, we all know that there's absolutely no chance of anyone ever having traded with a neighboring region or country, the MyArmoury Gods have already ruled on this controversial matter...    (for those unaware, it's an old joke)