Taking hits

[Sir Edward]

I was just thinking about the concept of acknowledging your hits in a duel/bout/fight (whatever you want to call it). I was reading a thread over on the ArmourArchive.org forums in which the OP was irritated over the disagreement of what constituted a valid hit during a particular SCA event, later resulting in phone calls and further disagreement. (http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=87585).

I know similar things happen to everyone. Sometimes what seemed like a good blow to one person (or even an observer) does not seem so good to someone else. I know there are times when I could swear I hit someone when sparring, but they don't acknowledge it, and there are times times when that's the other way around. And sometimes it's easy to overlook a good hit simply because your attention is so focused on what you're doing that you may not notice what happened to you.

Take for instance the sparring we did in class last week, when Bill was sure he hit my arms (and Pamela thought so too), when from my point of view, I was actually proud of myself for not taking any hits on my arms during those exchanges... I started questioning my own judgment later in the evening.

Who wins or loses doesn't matter much in the context of practice. But what are some of your opinions on the matter? How much do you trust your own ability to count your hits? Do you get caught in the moment and miss details about how it played out? I think this latter part is more important when it comes to practice, since it's important for identifying where you need more work, what your mistakes were, etc.

I'm just interested in people's thoughts on the matter.

[Sword Chick]

Since any bouting that I do is for the purpose of improving my own technique, I always give the doubt to my partner.

If there is any doubt as to whether or not I scored a valid hit, then I didn't.  If it wasn't obvious, then something was lacking in my technique and it would not have been an effective hit in a "real" fight.

If there is any doubt as to whether or not I was hit, then I was.  I simply did not do a good enough job in defending myself.  In a "real" fight that slight "almost hit" may be enough to distract me and allow my opponent to finish me off.

I'm never out there to "win the game".  I don't mind losing a bout as long as most of what I did was correct and I learned something from my mistakes. 

[Das Bill]

What SwordChick said.

I can't speak for SCA, but in the martial arts world too many people fall prey to the competitive mode and fail to see the big picture. Bouting is only a tool for training, not an end to a means. But you guys already know I think that.

I saw some show where these MMA guys travelled to world to train with various traditional martial arts masters. The one I saw was where they traveled to Israel to train in Krav Maga. The MMA guys have done tons of cage fighting competitively, and were certainly no slouches when it came to that arena. They put one guy in a simulation against a person with a training knife. The person with the training knife tore up the mixed-martial arts guy. At the end, the instructor basically said, "You're a great cage fighter... but you don't know crap about real fighting." If artificial free-play is the only thing you train for, then you only get good at artificial free-play. Which for many is fine, but it isn't for me.

However, that doesn't actually address Ed's question. So, yes, that happens to me all the time, Ed, where I don't realize I was hit, or where I thought I hit and the other person doesn't realize. Occassionally I know the other person isn't being honest, but thankfully that is fairly rare at VAF, since bouting is only a side-practice for us, not the main goal of developing martial competency. This is why its important to me to change the rules up from time to time (like what we did in last class... and what we'll be doing tonight, incidentally). Sometimes you limit target areas. Sometimes you don't stop even after a good hit. Sometimes you stop after light hits. Sometimes one person is allowed a significant advantage over another person (allowed to be hit twice whereas the other is only allowed to be hit once, etc). This way you learn to use your core skills, and not rely on cheap tricks that only work because they play to the rules of engagement.

(by the way, I sent you an e-mail just before logging on here)

[Sir Edward]

(and I replied via email before logging in)

Thanks for those thoughts. I agree with all of the above. I try to give the benefit of the doubt to my opponent, and as a general rule, even if what I took was a bad hit (struck with the flat, for instance), I tend to count it as a mistake on my part, since I didn't sufficiently defend myself. I see this as one of the greatest areas in which I need improvement. I tend to attack into attacks, going for the opening suicidally.

I don't care whether I win or lose when we're practicing (or under any circumstances, really, since it's all practice). But I also have to fight down that competitive instinct and remind myself to be gracious and honest about the hits I take. So I hope I don't subconsciously or accidentally miss more than my share. I'd hate for people to get irritated with me and not want to spar anymore.

And by the way-- I love the uneven sparring and rule change-ups. It forces you to think about what you're doing and not just react blindly. Not to mention it's fun!

[Sword Chick]

However, that doesn't actually address Ed's question. So, yes, that happens to me all the time, Ed, where I don't realize I was hit, or where I thought I hit and the other person doesn't realize.

It happens to me too, especially the first part.  I truly may not have felt the hit, but that doesn't mean I wasn't. 

Speaking of which, it'll probably happen lots tonight.   

[Dragonlover]

It goes the same sometimes in the SCA too, Bill. Unfortunately, the desire to "go
for the crown"as it were, sometimes overshadowed the real importance of the
bout. In my former Atlantian days, we were lauded as some of the hardest hitters.
A lot of guys up here didn't like to fight in the kingdom of Meridies (Georgia), et. al,
because they thought a light shot to the helm was good.

 I liked the call because it made a fighter do what he should be doing, not getting hit
at all! It also didnt open up a lot of debate as to whether a shot was light or not.
To my thinking, if you hit me in the face or helm, I obviously didn't see it coming.
A lot of great practices I had with some of the guys down there, and some of 'em
are just blindingly fast!!!!
The one thing they still practice and believe religiously, is taking off a gauntlet to shake a hand when all is said and done.

  Back in Atlantia, I have had several chances to witness matches that were just
brawling displays of poor sportsmanship and stupidity. I would have been extremely
embarassed to have been in such. If I was ever in doubt, I let the marshall decide.
After all, he can see what I may not. Besides, as Sir Brian and I have discussed
over many a pint, the idea is to discover your own strengths and weaknesses,
while helping a comrade-in-arms overcome his or her own.

That's the way it always should be, I think, and I actually saw an old friend recently
who asked when I was going to start playing again? I had to tell them that unfortunately, I was putting my energy elsewhere.....

[Das Bill]

Besides, as Sir Brian and I have discussed
over many a pint, the idea is to discover your own strengths and weaknesses,
while helping a comrade-in-arms overcome his or her own.

I think that's very well put!