Quote from Geoffri de Charney - Talking Points

[Joshua Santana]

A week ago I posted on my Facebook page as status which was a compilation of quotes from Sir Geoffri de Charney's manual on Chivalry and Knighthood.  The status got many likes which I admit put a smile on my face.  However I want to share them with you to get some discussion going in regards to application in day to day life. 

Here is the list (taken from Chivalry Now article "From A Knight's Own Book of Chivalry")  http://www.chivalrynow.net/articles2015/charny.htm

"Be tender and humble among friends."
"Tender mercy and assistance toward those who need assistance."
"Be generous in giving where the gift will be best used."
"Love and serve your friends."
"Plan your enterprises cautiously… carry them out boldly."
"No one should fall into despair from cowardice nor be too confident."
"Dread vile cowardice more than death."
"Take care not to be so greedy as to take what belongs to others without good cause."
"Do not be envious of others."
"Avoid quarrels."
"Refrain from saying unpleasant things."
"Make sure what you say is of some profit rather than merely cautious."
"Do not praise your own conduct nor criticize too much that of others."
"Do not desire to take away another's honor, but safeguard your own."
"Do not despise poor men or those lesser in rank than you, for there are many poor men who are of greater worth than the rich."
"Take care not to talk too much."
"Be careful not to be too guileless, for the man who knows nothing, neither of good nor of evil, is blind and unseeing in his heart, nor can he give himself or others good counsel."
"Refrain from remonstrating with fools… Remonstrate with the wise."
"Never regret any generosity you may show. A man of worth should not remember what he has given except when the recipient brings the gift back to mind for the good return he makes for it."
"Avoid acquiring a bad reputation for miserliness in your old age."
"Refrain from enriching yourself at others' expense, especially from the limited resources of the poor, for unsullied poverty is worth more than corrupt wealth."
"As long as you keep your secret to yourself, it is always within your control."
"Always expect victory, not defeat."
"Be sure that you care less for death than about shame. Those who put their lives in danger with the deliberate intention of avoiding shame are strong in all things."
"In all adversity be always steadfast and wise."
"Where there is arrogance, there reigns anger and all kinds of folly; and where humility is to be found, there reigns good sense and happiness."
"What you do not know, you should ask with due humility to be taught it."

My questions for discussion are the following: Why is humility important that it is repeated throughout the quotes?  Is there a valid read to keep a secret to yourself because you will have more control?  Why should we expect to have victory and not defeat, isn't defeat a good lesson to learn from?  Why should we not talk too much, to prevent bad speech?  Should we be considerate in our speech and conduct towards others? 

I would like to hear your answers and I will post my answers to the questions. Have at it!

[Jon Blair]

Humility is very important. Proverbs XVI:18 says, "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." Many knights could see the effects of overweening pride amongst their peers, and I'm sure the wiser ones taught others to avoid it.

Secrets are sensitive things. The more who know a thing, the less it can be kept. If entrusted with a secret, it should be kept unless keeping it would endanger others or prevent justice from being met, but I would prefer not to be entrusted with a secret.

My personal email has the following in the signature: "Victory needs no explanation; Defeat allows none." We should learn from our mistakes, but to seek defeat to learn a lesson is wasteful. So, go into each endeavor expecting victory. If you lose, learn from it sure, but keep striving for victory.

Our tongues are the most dangerous of all our body parts. With it, we can wound others more surely than any sword or spear. A fool need do nothing more to prove his foolishness to others than open his mouth. A wise man will keep a rein on his tongue, speaking when prudent and keeping himself from vain speech or gossip. We should use our speech to exhort and uplift others and to impart truth. The same goes for our conduct. We should be courteous toward others if we expect the same in return. By giving respect, we gain respect.

[Joshua Santana]

Humility is very important. Proverbs XVI:18 says, "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." Many knights could see the effects of overweening pride amongst their peers, and I'm sure the wiser ones taught others to avoid it.

Good answer.  So negative pride from what you're saying has a negative effect on people and friends and that humility instills a positive image socially?

Secrets are sensitive things. The more who know a thing, the less it can be kept. If entrusted with a secret, it should be kept unless keeping it would endanger others or prevent justice from being met, but I would prefer not to be entrusted with a secret.

Your preference is not to keep anything secret but rather to let the truth be spoken?  What if it was something sensitive and the individual who told you said "I will try to make things right, just don't tell anyone?"  What would you say in response?

My personal email has the following in the signature: "Victory needs no explanation; Defeat allows none." We should learn from our mistakes, but to seek defeat to learn a lesson is wasteful. So, go into each endeavor expecting victory. If you lose, learn from it sure, but keep striving for victory.

Should the learning from our mistakes have impacting or minuscule consequences?  And if so, should we rely on discernment so as to avoid impacting consequences?

Our tongues are the most dangerous of all our body parts. With it, we can wound others more surely than any sword or spear. A fool need do nothing more to prove his foolishness to others than open his mouth. A wise man will keep a rein on his tongue, speaking when prudent and keeping himself from vain speech or gossip. We should use our speech to exhort and uplift others and to impart truth. The same goes for our conduct. We should be courteous toward others if we expect the same in return. By giving respect, we gain respect.

 

So the way that we speak to each other in the Order and to those outside the Order (family, friends, people at fairs or events) should be held to a standard of respect and coolness that we rely on our heads rather than our impressions or feelings?

Good answers, anyone else want to add?

 

[jason77]

"Honesty is always the best policy" as an immovable mantra should be questioned in certain circumstances IMO. For example, employing a lie to save another from embarrassment is common. For example, if a lady asked how she appeared, no matter how ugly she is in actuality, I would refrain from telling her that she is unattractive. Let's also assume you were to arrive at a town and a friend came out to greet you filled with a sense of honor and gratitude that you made a special visit to see him when in truth you were merely passing through or you were keeping other arrangements. Should you tell the friend the truth which is that you had no intention of seeing him and thus embarrassing him? There are also times when a lie must be told to protect assets, or a life or even to thwart a more negative action. If one always tells the truth no matter the consequences in order to be seen as righteous then that person will at times be viewed as nothing more than a self-righteous fool.

Humility is often seen in many cultures as the opposite of pride. Humility is exalted and pride is repudiated as an evil vice. However, humility is not the opposite of greatness and being humble is not to think less of yourself than what you are and what you truly deserve. It's a paradox that the more a man knows of his own worth the closer he comes to pride and yet humility is not an attribute which should cause a man to see himself as unworthy. Pride can masquerade as humility and this false humility is a self-delusion. It is my opinion that the consistent battle between humility and pride can only be won if a person neither considers himself superior nor inferior in any way. We should focus on right conduct and characteristics that should always be developed within us such as empathy, sincerity, trustworthiness, fidelity, etc. As long as one concentrates their efforts on proper character development and spiritual growth then one is fulfilling the fundamental imperative of humility.

[Sir Rodney]

To Jason's first point, "discretion is the greater part of valor".   

[Thorsteinn]

Why is humility important that it is repeated throughout the quotes?

Humility is the odd companion of courage and bravery. Knowing your limits and when to surpass them is an important thing, but also knowing when to hold back to save yourself from unneeded risk or damage. Jeremy Clarkson's arrogance cost him his job at Top Gear. James May's & Richard Hammond's humility saved the concept and brought about the possibility of The Grand Tour for they knew that they were good and could do Top Gear without Clarkson, but were humble enough to know in their hearts it just wasn't worth it to them.

Is there a valid read to keep a secret to yourself because you will have more control?

"Lesson number one: Trust no one. Minute God crapped out the third caveman, a conspiracy was hatched against one of them." -Col. Hunter Gathers, Venture Brothers.

Why should we expect to have victory and not defeat, isn't defeat a good lesson to learn from? 

Depends on where you lose. If you lose a fight in training, you get hurt. If you lose a fight in war, you die. Cry in the salle, laugh on the battlefield.

Why should we not talk too much, to prevent bad speech? 

I'm told I talk to much, heck I have over 70 video's of me talking online, so I feel distinctly unqualified to answer. However as some have discovered about me I may talk to you a lot, only for you to figure out later that I actually said very little. Other times I talk very little, and say quite a bit.

Should we be considerate in our speech and conduct towards others?

Yes and no.

Yes: As Hillel said "That which is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the soul of Torah".

No: "Sometimes you just gotta let out your inner asshole and embrace him with open arms." -Me, about 2002.

[jason77]

Thorsteinn - what is your YT channel? I searched for you but came up with nada.

[Joshua Santana]

Humility is the odd companion of courage and bravery. Knowing your limits and when to surpass them is an important thing, but also knowing when to hold back to save yourself from unneeded risk or damage

In simple words, discernment is what is needed to maintain humility.

If you lose a fight in training, you get hurt. If you lose a fight in war, you die. Cry in the salle, laugh on the battlefield.

Good saying right there.

I'm told I talk to much, heck I have over 70 video's of me talking online, so I feel distinctly unqualified to answer. However as some have discovered about me I may talk to you a lot, only for you to figure out later that I actually said very little. Other times I talk very little, and say quite a bit.

That is true.  Knowing when to talk and not to talk is a fine line in of itself.  Yet silence allows us to listen to more without missing out on anything.

Yes and no.

Yes: As Hillel said "That which is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the soul of Torah".

No: "Sometimes you just gotta let out your inner asshole and embrace him with open arms." -Me, about 2002.

I see. 

(The quote from Bavli Talmud technically reads as הלל גייריה אמר לו דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור.  "That which is hateful to you do not do to another; that is the entire Torah, and the rest is its interpretation. Go study.")  Good point by the way.

Lol, too funny. 

Just waiting for everyone else to have their say before I give my personal answers.

[Thorsteinn]

Thorsteinn - what is your YT channel? I searched for you but came up with nada.

PM'ed.

[Sir Nate]

"No one should fall into despair from cowardice nor be too confident."

I don't want to do an assignment its boring.... a few days later....  I can't do it its too hard.... day of due date:  I WANT TO COMPLETE THIS BUT I CAN'T, ALAS THE DESPAIR!.       To be too confident- I'm done the assignment, and I don't need to look over it again/check my work its perfect. 

"Take care not to be so greedy as to take what belongs to others without good cause."

Im not going to take my buddies castle. Im going to take the frenchmans castle for it belongs to my King, Deus Vult.

"Be sure that you care less for death than about shame. Those who put their lives in danger with the deliberate intention of avoiding shame are strong in all things"

This one I have a more serious response to. Is it better to be taken prisoner or fight another day? is that shameful in Chivalry? or would Id rather die. Does it depend who is taking my prisoner? "Is it the King or that low status knight William Marshal? Is it bad to surrender to the marshal as he seems to defeat everybody"(taken in context of early days of William's tourny'ing)

"What you do not know, you should ask with due humility to be taught it."

If you don't know something, shut up and listen.

Now to answer your question

"My questions for discussion are the following: Why is humility important that it is repeated throughout the quotes?  Is there a valid read to keep a secret to yourself because you will have more control?  Why should we expect to have victory and not defeat, isn't defeat a good lesson to learn from?  Why should we not talk too much, to prevent bad speech?  Should we be considerate in our speech and conduct towards others?  "

In response to expecting Victory and not defeat, I think this could be thought of as a Knight having faith in God. As Knights were Christian, actually trusting in God to lead you to Victory, will lead you to Victory(in the faith of course)If you end up losing anyway, you obviously failed in prayer, faith, or you have sinned in some way. In the eyes of a knight, that is to say.

[Joshua Santana]

I don't want to do an assignment its boring.... a few days later....  I can't do it its too hard.... day of due date:  I WANT TO COMPLETE THIS BUT I CAN'T, ALAS THE DESPAIR!.       To be too confident- I'm done the assignment, and I don't need to look over it again/check my work its perfect.

Difference between being arrogant and depressed is motivation.

Im not going to take my buddies castle. Im going to take the frenchmans castle for it belongs to my King, Deus Vult.

Hahahahahaahaa!  Good one.

If you don't know something, shut up and listen.

Exactly.

In response to expecting Victory and not defeat, I think this could be thought of as a Knight having faith in God. As Knights were Christian, actually trusting in God to lead you to Victory, will lead you to Victory(in the faith of course)If you end up losing anyway, you obviously failed in prayer, faith, or you have sinned in some way. In the eyes of a knight, that is to say.

Another way to approach that would be this.  In the expectation of defeat or victory, the Knight must have complete faith and trust in the Eternal One (G-d), without these two things it is not possible to please the Holy One, Blessed be He.  Victory is determined and achieved by the Master of the Universe in the spiritual realm, we carry out the victory in the physical realm.  Defeat is not having faith nor trust in the Eternal One and us carrying out a false victory with no green light from the King upstairs.

Good answers Naythan. 

[Sir Nate]

I don't want to do an assignment its boring.... a few days later....  I can't do it its too hard.... day of due date:  I WANT TO COMPLETE THIS BUT I CAN'T, ALAS THE DESPAIR!.       To be too confident- I'm done the assignment, and I don't need to look over it again/check my work its perfect.

Difference between being arrogant and depressed is motivation.

Im not going to take my buddies castle. Im going to take the frenchmans castle for it belongs to my King, Deus Vult.

Hahahahahaahaa!  Good one.

If you don't know something, shut up and listen.

Exactly.

In response to expecting Victory and not defeat, I think this could be thought of as a Knight having faith in God. As Knights were Christian, actually trusting in God to lead you to Victory, will lead you to Victory(in the faith of course)If you end up losing anyway, you obviously failed in prayer, faith, or you have sinned in some way. In the eyes of a knight, that is to say.

Another way to approach that would be this.  In the expectation of defeat or victory, the Knight must have complete faith and trust in the Eternal One (G-d), without these two things it is not possible to please the Holy One, Blessed be He.  Victory is determined and achieved by the Master of the Universe in the spiritual realm, we carry out the victory in the physical realm.  Defeat is not having faith nor trust in the Eternal One and us carrying out a false victory with no green light from the King upstairs.

Good answers Naythan. 

It feels good to be discussing Chivalry again.

[Joshua Santana]

It feels good to be discussing Chivalry again.

Yes it does Naythan. 

My answers will be posted soon. 

[Joshua Santana]

Here are (as a recap) my questions: 

Why is humility important that it is repeated throughout the quotes? 
Is there a valid read to keep a secret to yourself because you will have more control? 
Why should we expect to have victory and not defeat, isn't defeat a good lesson to learn from? 
Why should we not talk too much, to prevent bad speech? 
Should we be considerate in our speech and conduct towards others? 

Here are my answers.

Why is humility important that it is repeated throughout the quotes?

Humility is the virtue that acts as a balance between pride and confidence.  Humility when exercised properly is more beneficial than pride (pertaining to egoism) and confidence (too much confidence leads to arrogance).  Humility to me means to be down to earth and to be never be boastful under any circumstance.

Is there a valid reason to keep a secret to yourself because you will have more control? 

If the secret is something that pertains to you, it is best to keep it to yourself unless you require or need help.  One who has control over himself will be able to keep any secret and even make things that are secret no longer a secret for he would have finished any business dealing with the secret (regarding himself or with others).

Why should we expect to have victory and not defeat, isn't defeat a good lesson to learn from?

The real question that should be asked is 'If I were to have defeat, does that defeat have a lesson pertaining to me?'  Victory of course must be celebrated.  Yet defeat in training or a defeat which reveals a flaw in one's character is better than the defeat of a goal or dream.  Defeat in battle is death, defeat in one's flawed ambition must lead to self introspection and character rectification. 

Why should we not talk too much, to prevent bad speech?

Moderation in speech is a sign of maturity and mastery of self.  One must be careful with their words so as to not make a mistake by miscommunication.  Bad speech is beneficial to no one, wise and good speech benefits everyone including yourself.

Should we be considerate in our speech and conduct towards others? 

Yes, consideration in speech and mannerisms shows mastery of self and maturity.  The manner of which I conduct myself towards people must present the real me no matter who I am talking to.  Wise speech and gentle manners go a long good way in maintaining friendships and presenting the Ideals of Chivalry to all people. 

[Sir Rodney]

Is there a valid reason to keep a secret to yourself because you will have more control? 

If the secret is something that pertains to you, it is best to keep it to yourself unless you require or need help.  One who has control over himself will be able to keep any secret and even make things that are secret no longer a secret for he would have finished any business dealing with the secret (regarding himself or with others).

Agreed, if the secret pertains only to oneself and impacts only oneself.  To keep a secret for the sake of control (power) is not acceptable in my opinion.  One who keeps secrets for vain, glory, or power over others can not be considered chivalrous.