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Author Topic: Greetings from "the new guy"  (Read 9626 times)

Magnus the Smasher

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Greetings from "the new guy"
« on: 2015-08-18, 14:53:55 »
So, here is my kit:
 
Maille: KoA hauberk with trimmed sleeves over a KoA 'Tristan' shirt, (also trimmed sleeves).
 
Surcoat: homemade, (edging was machine stitched bias tape to save time and aggravation) using single layer 'hopsack' linen.

Boots: 7 buckle faux leather from DKA (too big).

Coif: KoA mild steel, zinc plated, butted. Trimmed 5 inches off the bottom edge and opened the chin area (kept snagging the beard... OUCH!!).

Pants: Black sweats ( I know, I know... working on it!)

Bracers: (not shown, left them at home, duh!) Handmade black leather and rivets, laced, not buckled.

Helm: (not shown, WAY too hot!) Sir William Marshal replica from KoA, steel, added a 'ponytail' (have no Idea why I did that...), added brass plate around eye slits to make it look more sinister... original eye slits make it look sad, droopy.

Torse and mantle: Handmade from surcoat scraps wrapped around thick piping cord. (Going to re-do this over the winter).

Weapons: Mayhawke Armory knightly sword, handmade oak warhammer(save weight and also to be ren-faire legal).

I have more tweaking to do during the winter... just about everything will get worked over. Kind of a mish-mosh kit. Was going for a mercenary/rogue look... Take what I want/need from my slain victims :)
 Thanks for letting me bore you... I plan on hitting as many faires and festivals as I can in the NE area... hope to meet some of you there!
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Sampf

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #1 on: 2015-08-18, 15:17:46 »
Welcome! And may I say nice kit
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Sir Patrick

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #2 on: 2015-08-18, 18:20:35 »
Hail and well met!
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Magnus the Smasher

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #3 on: 2015-08-18, 19:02:12 »
In your knowledgeable opinions, does my kit... "work", or have I completely missed the mark? I'm not thrilled with the boots... definitely going to address that.  What era would this be? I was shooting for a non-allied Norman merc.
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Sampf

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #4 on: 2015-08-18, 20:05:13 »
Wait NE as in New England?
I reside up there
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Magnus the Smasher

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #5 on: 2015-08-18, 20:59:46 »
Yes... I live about 45 minutes north of Manhattan.
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Sampf

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #6 on: 2015-08-18, 21:31:58 »
Cool! Nice to meet another fellow new Englander on here I think that makes three of us
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Henrik Granlid

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #7 on: 2015-08-19, 09:51:01 »
Welcome!

Always fun to see a new member show up!


NOTE! Ok, this is ridiculous. I was so certain you wanted an allegiance-free Normand knight... and now it's nowhere in your post. All of the below is written with a main focus in the 11th century. There are some pieces about 12th and 13th centuries as well and they still stand:

Quick 12th century notes:
If the William Marshal Helmet is the one with a flip-visor, it's off. It's very off. 12th century is still the early days of face-protection and a conical with a nasal is still the main helmet of choice. A 13th century knight would wear a greathelm for most of the century.

Bracers are still a-historical. Make a nice gambeson and let that stand as your forearm protection, and/or get a long-sleeved maille shirt, possibly with mittens attached.

You'll still want wool hose. Possibly with maille hose on top. Ditch the boots in favour of turnshoes.

Overall: Don't be afraid of colour. If you make a new surcotte, make it out of wool, machine-stitch the lines that won't be seen and then do the hemming by hand. Your kit is on the right track for a 12th or 13th century knight (I believe the torse shows up in the 13th), but you're going to want to review your armour if you want to be more historical.


Original Post

As for your question... well...

(I am assuming Hastings-era here, if you're later, get a greathelm to put the torse on, get your coif to cover more of your face, get shoes, gambeson and drop the bracers.)

Ok, let's go from the top down. Your Torse is probably one of the three most out of place pieces of your kit. It belongs on a greathelm, or a grand bascinet, and is, as such, at least 200 years too early. Also, there isn't a helmet for it to go on. If you want to go Norman Knight, I'd highly recommend swapping the Torse for a Conical helmet with a nasal, preferably a helmet without riveted construction.

Your coif would go underneath this helmet, and is actually looking good. You might want to close it up a bit toward your chin, but it looks a lot like depictions from the era, so you're good =)


Next step, torso and arms. Well, there is one glaring error, and that'd actually be the surcotte. Especially on a non-aligned knight. You'd wear your Maille as the top layer and then not cover it. So if the surcotte goes, you'll be closer to a proper Normand Knight.

Arms... well... Length is good for Hastings, less so for the crusades. And I'm sorry but bracers are a modern hollywood idea to make people look more armoured and has no historical bearings at all. So drop them. A nice, long sleeved wool tunic underneath your maille would look worlds better. If you're doing a later period, a nice gambeson (not too thick) under the maille would also be great. But, as said earlier, you'd want longer sleeves for any knight of the 13th century and onwards.

Now, legs.

For an 11th century normand, braies, hose and turnshoes and you're good. So drop the boots and get some nice hose going, you can tie them up with braided bands around your knees for extra fancyness. If you're 13th century, you'll want either gamboised cuises and maille "boots" or "socks", or you'll want full on maille hose over turnshoes and braies and hose.

All in all, you have a good start, and you have a really nice fit on the hauberk. Accessorising it with either period clothes or period arming clothes is going to be key to making you look proper.

Here are some 11th century Norman reenactors to guide your way. It would appear they all wear Winnegas
http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/images/norman/norman-1509-a.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/37/f5/59/37f5597e88015d49d06d6968df0a9e2e.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b7/7d/5c/b77d5c16ee8a181cfa8b6595e9ba22f1.jpg

(do note that the slatted splints on the second ones chins are ca. 600ad and not 1000. He may actually be a viking reenactor, but the profile is similar enough)

Shiny.

Magnus the Smasher

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #8 on: 2015-08-19, 10:31:32 »
Thank you so much for the help, Henrik! I kind of pieced this together over a year or so... I knew it wasn't correct, but wasn't sure where I went off. Now I know where to go. I guess I better get started! =)
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Magnus the Smasher

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #9 on: 2015-08-19, 12:11:01 »
I got a decision to make here, don't I ? It seems I've got myself somewhere between the Normans and 13th century... Either way it's gonna cost me to get it right.
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Henrik Granlid

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #10 on: 2015-08-19, 13:43:37 »
Not particularly much actually. Your first point of order might as well be getting yourself some clothes and the simple hose and T-tunics aren't that difficult to make.

Linen shirt
Linen brais
Wool tunic
Wool hose

Once you have those, you get turnshoes, again, not that expensive.

And now you're actually set for a good kit to be either an 11th or 12th or 13th century knight. The cost comes in upgrading your armour, and that's where the 13th will be more expensive than the 11th (11th requires a conical helmet and you're done, whereas 13th will require a gambeson, greathelm, maille hose and longer sleeves).

My advice would be to look through what people wear and find the period you want to do proper, and once you have that down, you start building from the inside out. I.e.

Undergarments
Civilian clothes and/or Arming Clothes if they existed (no gambesons in the 11th century really)

And then you start layering your armour on top of that. And you're not that far off from the 11th already, and you would still be doing a very ok 13th even by just slapping a greathelm with your Torse and mantle on top of what you have =) (Although, again, boots and bracers should probably go). Ian L did an amazing job at "So you want to buy some armour" at the top of the posts.

Here's a funny thing though.
You can actually do another period.
And your Maille is great for it.

14th century.
You add a 14th century greathelm (or, honestly, ANY 14th century helmet you like).
You add elbowcops with your leather bracers.
You make yourself a pair of leather greaves.
Get kneecops.
And sew yourself a pair of padded cuises.

Now you're wearing tournament gear from the 14th century. To this, you can later add a coat of plates, or a lombard breastplate. You can, if you want to, add one of those huge crests on top of your helm (if you get a greathelm) and have it nested in your Torse and mantle.

But again, for this transition, you're also going to need:
Shirt and braies
Hose (might I suggest one yellow, one black if those are your colours? Or both yellow if you make your cuises and greaves black)
A thinner aketon or pourpoint to wear beneath the maille and to attach your new, spangly elbow cops to.

You could very quickly become very iconic, and, when you have more money, or time, you can, as said, start upgrading your kit into any 14th century direction you want to take it. Be it plate, splint, early, mid or late.


EDIT:
Here's a fine Danish gent in, what is assumed to be, leather greaves
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1623517375/in/set-72157602468647900/

There are also plenty of pictures from both Germany and Italy of maille being worn down to the elbow, with a cop and then a bracer. It is the leather bracers as standalone defenses that is of hollywood make, but, with an elbow-cop and maille and possibly even more protection under the maille, it is fine. And, as said, with laced up leather greaves and bracers, elbow protection, knee protection and gamboised cuises, you'll have a fine tournament gear.
« Last Edit: 2015-08-19, 13:53:42 by Henrik Granlid »
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Magnus the Smasher

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #11 on: 2015-08-19, 16:48:02 »
The Ren-faire up here in NY is held in August and early Sept... WAY too hot for wool anything... linens only. As it was, the kit in my pic was even too much... was starting to get wobbly at the end of the day... (then again, I am old and fat=))
 Would it be possible that the Normans used a 'summer' kit (linen) and a 'winter' kit (wool) as the seasons changed? I would think so, no?
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Ian

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #12 on: 2015-08-19, 17:27:18 »
The Ren-faire up here in NY is held in August and early Sept... WAY too hot for wool anything... linens only. As it was, the kit in my pic was even too much... was starting to get wobbly at the end of the day... (then again, I am old and fat=))
 Would it be possible that the Normans used a 'summer' kit (linen) and a 'winter' kit (wool) as the seasons changed? I would think so, no?

Most direct evidence from survivals, wills, etc suggest that under-garments were linen, and outer-garments were wool.  Heavy wool is hot.  Light wool is not.  Wool comes in summer weights, and can be made very light.  Light tropical-weight and summer-weight wools are still very much available today.  No one's going to care at a renaissance faire what whether you're wearing wool, linen, or polyester.  But if your goal is defensible historical accuracy or living history grade outer garments, wool is the go-to fabric (in appropriate weights) for most outerwear.  Unless you want to wear silk ;)  It all just depends on what your goals are.
« Last Edit: 2015-08-19, 17:29:15 by Ian »
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Magnus the Smasher

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #13 on: 2015-08-19, 17:55:05 »
Well, I get that no one at the ren-faire will care what fabric my stuff is made from... but I will! I got a few compliments last weekend, and it was mostly about the maille and my hammer. But there are people who appreciate what it takes to get it right. And to hear the compliments about your kit, well... that just makes the time, effort and expense all the more worth it. I'll see if my local fabric store has the light wool. If so, then I'll be doing lots of needlework.
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Thorsteinn

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Re: Greetings from "the new guy"
« Reply #14 on: 2015-08-19, 18:10:39 »
Linen can be very keen in the summer. Thus why my 3 layer linen gambeson made all the difference when fighting in the Central Valley summers. I've done the 100'+, 90% humidity, at sea level once or twice and between one year and the next I got that gambeson. It was all the difference one could imagine.
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