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Author Topic: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?  (Read 10542 times)

Naythan

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Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« on: 2015-02-18, 23:18:17 »
I was looking at arms and armor site, and noticed that they have a longsword labeled as 12th century and say there are findings of that style as early as 1100. I thought the first two handed swords weren't until the 13th century? Thoughts? Are there any findings to support this....? I am a bit confused.
http://armor.com/sword089.html
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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #1 on: 2015-02-19, 02:23:42 »
It is a sword that can be used in two hands or one like Albions 'The Duke', but probably meant for a modified pommel style of gripping when used in two hands, especially with that length of grip.

This kind of sword started appearing at the same time maille started covering ones opponents more & more.
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Naythan

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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #2 on: 2015-02-19, 22:51:33 »
It is a sword that can be used in two hands or one like Albions 'The Duke', but probably meant for a modified pommel style of gripping when used in two hands, especially with that length of grip.

This kind of sword started appearing at the same time maille started covering ones opponents more & more.
I'm not sure they had swords with grips this long. At least not until the latter of the 13th century
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Sir James A

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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #3 on: 2015-02-19, 23:19:32 »
At 43" overall it's around "long sword" length. The original has a 150 year span it may have been from, so 1250 is plenty within 13th century; right in the middle, actually. :)

I'm not sure if it's an outlier statistically, but remember there is "common" and "happened but not commonly".
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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #4 on: 2015-02-20, 21:17:48 »
I'm not sure if it's an outlier statistically, but remember there is "common" and "happened but not commonly".

That's my understanding, that "longswords" existed as early as the 12th, but weren't very common.
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Naythan

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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #5 on: 2015-02-20, 22:26:02 »
I'm not sure if it's an outlier statistically, but remember there is "common" and "happened but not commonly".

That's my understanding, that "longswords" existed as early as the 12th, but weren't very common.

Oh, I've always told people it wasn't seen until the mid 13th century.
Usually when talking about how many pre 1250 movies give the hero a two handed sword(particulary ironclad and KOH).


(edit by Sir Edward: moved the message outside of the quoted block)
« Last Edit: 2015-03-02, 19:04:02 by Sir Edward »
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Sir William

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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #6 on: 2015-02-24, 17:15:57 »
Naythan, you should not use movies as a reference to weapon historicity- because it rarely happens and when it does, usually by accident.  There are a few exceptions, Arn: Night Templar comes to mind as they went to Albion for all of their weapons needs (oh to have been one of the knight-extras, I would simply have demanded the sword as recompense in lieu of cash lol)...actually, Arn's the only one to come to mind that went that extra length for their swords.  KoH (1184AD w/a bastard sword) and Robin Hood (1199AD or thereabouts, singlehand) went with Windlass, while Ironclad appears to have went with someone else.  Then there's all the smaller budget films- I don't know who they're getting their weapons from but some of them are dog-ugly.  I've always thought that would be the case- not everyone's going to have the pristine man-killer we're so used to seeing.  I'm sure someone somewhere carried the Ford Pinto of swords just as the nobleman would have the Lamborghini of swords.
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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #7 on: 2015-02-24, 21:39:20 »
^ what Sir William said. Every time you use a non-period source, you're getting farther and farther from what you're trying to recreate. Think of the old "telephone" game, and what the starting phrase vs ending phrase is.
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Naythan

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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #8 on: 2015-02-24, 23:12:18 »
Naythan, you should not use movies as a reference to weapon historicity- because it rarely happens and when it does, usually by accident.  There are a few exceptions, Arn: Night Templar comes to mind as they went to Albion for all of their weapons needs (oh to have been one of the knight-extras, I would simply have demanded the sword as recompense in lieu of cash lol)...actually, Arn's the only one to come to mind that went that extra length for their swords.  KoH (1184AD w/a bastard sword) and Robin Hood (1199AD or thereabouts, singlehand) went with Windlass, while Ironclad appears to have went with someone else.  Then there's all the smaller budget films- I don't know who they're getting their weapons from but some of them are dog-ugly.  I've always thought that would be the case- not everyone's going to have the pristine man-killer we're so used to seeing.  I'm sure someone somewhere carried the Ford Pinto of swords just as the nobleman would have the Lamborghini of swords.
I wasn't sourcing films,  I was referncing a situation where people think knights all had swords that size or that they were common because movies in KOH, Ironclad, and Brave heart, the hero has a two handed sword, or a great sword. Im not saying that means they did, Im saying its because of films like that Ive had to tell people they didn't have two handed swords like that yet. 
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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #9 on: 2015-03-02, 19:14:20 »
Oh, I've always told people it wasn't seen until the mid 13th century.
Usually when talking about how many pre 1250 movies give the hero a two handed sword(particulary ironclad and KOH).

They became somewhat more common in the late 13th, and much more popular in the 14th, where we start to see the manuscripts describing their use. So you've been erring on the correct side of things. :)

Ironclad is particularly bad in some ways, in that the sword isn't just a longsword, it's freaking huge. The really large two-handers are a much later invention, being seen more with Landesknechts, and bearing swords, and a variety of other 15th/16th c. uses. These would be pretty much unheard of prior to the 14th, if I recall correctly.

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Sir Humphrey

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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #10 on: 2015-03-16, 15:50:45 »
I have that sword.  I would call it a Hand and a Half.  I can wield it one handed, but I'm 6'4".   A person of shorter stature might have trouble with one hand.   there is enough room, even with my big hams, to grip it with two hands, although the second hand would wrap around the pommel too.  I got mine used from Joe Metz and do not regret it in the least.  Here it is after grip rewrap along with the scabbard I made for it.

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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #11 on: 2015-03-17, 16:41:28 »
^ that's beautiful!
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Sir William

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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #12 on: 2015-03-17, 20:01:35 »
I wasn't sourcing films,  I was referncing a situation where people think knights all had swords that size or that they were common because movies in KOH, Ironclad, and Brave heart, the hero has a two handed sword, or a great sword. Im not saying that means they did, Im saying its because of films like that Ive had to tell people they didn't have two handed swords like that yet.

That just means you get a chance to educate the listeners- and another opportunity to expound on all things knightly, not just swords!  You can't help what Hollywood's done to the contemporary mind with regard to knights however- you can point out what they got right, rather than all the things they got wrong.  It'll make for a more meaningful discussion- don't get me wrong, I've been there, casting all kinds of shade at this or that movie for the things they got wrong but if you're talking to a bunch of people who got interested in knights in the first place because of these movies, you may not want to figuratively crap on what they liked about it as an opener.  Just my humble opinion, of course.

And Sir Humphrey- love what you've done with that sword.
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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #13 on: 2015-03-21, 05:11:24 »
Oh, I've always told people it wasn't seen until the mid 13th century.
Usually when talking about how many pre 1250 movies give the hero a two handed sword(particulary ironclad and KOH).

They became somewhat more common in the late 13th, and much more popular in the 14th, where we start to see the manuscripts describing their use. So you've been erring on the correct side of things. :)

Ironclad is particularly bad in some ways, in that the sword isn't just a longsword, it's freaking huge. The really large two-handers are a much later invention, being seen more with Landesknechts, and bearing swords, and a variety of other 15th/16th c. uses. These would be pretty much unheard of prior to the 14th, if I recall correctly.

However, this Albion offering does seem to be based on originals from the 13th-14th centuries documented by Peter Johnsson's research, and is 55 inches long (!):
http://albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-2hander-archduke.htm

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Re: Arms and armor 12th century sword. Two handed?
« Reply #14 on: 2015-03-21, 12:58:18 »
I have that sword.  I would call it a Hand and a Half.  I can wield it one handed, but I'm 6'4".   A person of shorter stature might have trouble with one hand.   there is enough room, even with my big hams, to grip it with two hands, although the second hand would wrap around the pommel too.  I got mine used from Joe Metz and do not regret it in the least.  Here it is after grip rewrap along with the scabbard I made for it.

Sir Humphrey

So beautiful!