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Help with a crusader Knight set
Sir William:
Thank you, Naythan- good stuff!
Mike W.:
--- Quote from: Sir Naythan on 2015-02-06, 21:03:05 ---
The Albion Hospitaller, Is acceptable for 12th to mid 13th century.
While the albion Templar blade is mid to late 13th.
The Ritter next to the Albion Hospitaller is 12th.
--- End quote ---
Not sure where you got your dates from but they are WAY off.
The Albion Hospitaller and Ritter are interpretations of the Oakeshott Type XI. The Type XI was dominant during the 12th century. It was most common from 1120-1175, with some a few examples going as far back as 1080 and as late as 1210.
The Albion Templar is an interpretation of the Oakeshott Type Xa. This type was most common during the late Viking age but saw use up to the mid-13th century.
Make sure you keep up on your fact checking.
Sir Nate:
--- Quote from: Baron de Magnan on 2015-02-10, 22:09:40 ---
--- Quote from: Sir Naythan on 2015-02-06, 21:03:05 ---
The Albion Hospitaller, Is acceptable for 12th to mid 13th century.
While the albion Templar blade is mid to late 13th.
The Ritter next to the Albion Hospitaller is 12th.
--- End quote ---
Not sure where you got your dates from but they are WAY off.
The Albion Hospitaller and Ritter are interpretations of the Oakeshott Type XI. The Type XI was dominant during the 12th century. It was most common from 1120-1175, with some a few examples going as far back as 1080 and as late as 1210.
The Albion Templar is an interpretation of the Oakeshott Type Xa. This type was most common during the late Viking age but saw use up to the mid-13th century.
Make sure you keep up on your fact checking.
--- End quote ---
Albion site says the ritter is early 13th century.
looking through these, I actually see that most of the type XII's are found from French manuscripts. While the English they look like the Hospitallers(Same with Germany, although with germany I see more variation(Like that of the ritter)
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?year=1200&year_end=1260&country=4&country=12&country=3&country=8&country=9&country=2&country=15&country=34&country=24&country=7&tags=&manuscript=
I still think the swords in the Morgan bible (the majority) are type XI's.
Now here interesting ones from france and... I see both a type XII and XI
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4107/12174/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4975/15451/
Ritter pommel and type XII
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4107/12185/
(Btw when I say type XI, I mean a sword resembling the Hospitaller, and a sword Resembling the Albion 13th century knightly sword).
And doing more research, yes I see that after (pff, say 1230?) The type XII is definitely the norm.
Yet strangely the Morgan bible seems to show the Disc pommel as the Norm.
I still will argue the Hospitaller is fine for early 13th.
Make me say no later than 1210.... ;D
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=&tags=&country=4&country=12&country=3&country=8&country=9&country=2&country=15&country=34&country=24&country=7&year_end=1260&year=1200&page=3
Sir Nate:
Baron if you want to see more of my research, just give me your email and Ill share it with you via gmail.
(although Looking at more manuscripts, my older research is more of me just arguing with myself)
Ian:
Naythan, you may be confusing your sword typology a bit. Oakeshott typology is specific to blade geometry. It is not coupled with hilting and pommel typology. So a type X blade may have a lobed viking style pommel or a brazil nut pommel later on, and then a wheel pommel. And they overlap in time as well.
So looking through a manuscript at pommel shapes doesn't tell you much about the oakeshott blade typology directly. You seem to want to make a direct correlation between the two, but it doesn't work that way.
Type XII swords are some of the most common blade types and they last hundreds of years, with all different and changing hilt configurations and pommel shapes.
Also, blade profiles don't tell you the whole story, and that's really all you can see in manuscripts. Profile taper may be similar between two blade types, if you can't see or reasonably make an educated guess at cross-section, and fuller shapes you again don't have the whole picture.
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