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How to put on 12th century armor
Sir Nate:
--- Quote from: Page Aiden on 2015-03-31, 03:25:10 ---
--- Quote from: Sir Edward on 2015-03-30, 13:04:19 ---
--- Quote from: Sir James A on 2015-03-28, 16:01:46 ---Every test I've seen where attempting to pierce mail and/or padding underneath is done over a solid surface, like a wooden pell. I'd like to see one over a ballistics gel torso, or something that has the same "give" as a human body being struck. I'd bet the penetration and break rates are lower when the target has movement to it, rather than a fixed solid backing.
In my opinion, the tests we've seen against those solid-backed targets are more indicative of what might happen if you got shot / thrusted when you had your back solid against a solid object (like a wall), and not a battlefield attack.
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This is a very important point. Part of the reason mail armor works as well as it does, is because it's a machine with moving parts. The links pull in around the "puckering" caused by a thrust, using more of them to spread the impact. But to do so, the material underneath has to be soft. Padding will help. A person underneath can provide this as well. The damage to the armor will always be greater when it can't move.
But having said that, you can put considerable force behind a spear, and mail with or without padding may be insufficient protection.
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do you think it's possible padding was made with boiled wool to help create a greater defense?
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That is causing me to do some light research on it, when it existed, and how it was used. Since wool was One of the abundant materials of the middle ages, perhaps it would be possible. (Although modern padding, is mostly linen(Im not sure how historical that is)) It would really change a lot testing wise if the testers used boiled wool surcoats(also note the wool would already have to be knitted so it becomes even tighter, or from what I can gather so far)
--- Quote from: Sir William on 2015-03-31, 13:28:37 ---Any armor can be compromised, there was no such thing as a fully proofed harness. Since we are talking about personal belief:
--- Quote ---My position is this: I do not believe that mail, by itself, is effective, and that it must be combined with some sort of padding to absorb shock to allow it maximum efficiency in preventing injury from attack. I base this on scientific, controlled testing Alan Williams performed for his book “Knight and the Blast Furnace”.
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...it is my belief that armor was largely psychological in aspect. That is, it made the wearer more capable in a fight (or rather, that he/she believed this to be the case) and (the hope anyway) it intimidated the opponent. There are countless examples where armor did not keep its wearer from being killed. It isn't perfect- much depended on the wearer being good enough to avoid a killing blow, the armor serves to bolster that ability. That is my belief.
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I can agree with this, It also creates things the knight or wealthy foot soldier would just not have to worry about.
Chuck G.:
--- Quote from: Sir Wolf on 2015-03-28, 12:19:16 ---
--- Quote from: Chuck G. on 2015-03-27, 01:35:09 --- Seriously, have you really had someone try to run you through with an actual battle worthy (as opposed to blunted reenactment) spear, or try to cleave you from shoulder to navel with a razor sharp Dane axe?
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see hahaha actually yes. we've done lots of tests and guess what, the padding wouldn't have made a hill of beans. wanna know why? cause the spear head went right thru the riveted mail on all accounts. over and over and over.
ever shot a 25 layer jack with a longbow to test it? i have didn't go thru that. now the arrow went thru a lesser one and hit the mail under it. boy that was fun day.
ever seen a lip cut open from infantry vs horseman testing? ehhehe he spit his chewing tobacco thru the hole hehehe fun day of testing.
don't make assumptions that you can't back up with facts. it makes for bad history and aliens on tv. now discoveries are made every day that are jaw dropping and inspiring. i will wait for the professionals to tell me and not the internet.
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I have offered scientific facts, nothing more. Apparently you think Alan Williams, one of the preeminent authorities on arms & armour on the entire planet and indeed, a "professional" is incorrect. Fine, by all means prove that it is so. Obviously you have a vast corpus of rigorously documented scientific data that completely disproves him. That is excellent! Publish it and settle this matter once and for all!
Chuck G.:
--- Quote from: Sir Wolf on 2015-03-27, 22:31:44 ---your conclusions are riddled with fallacies. sorry but constant stuff makes me glaze over and i dont read all of it. you shot yourself in the foot by commenting that cause cause i wasn't in real medieval combat... then said they had it in rome so musta been used later. derppppppp wrong lol
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Prove even one "fallacy." Note that I firmly believe it to be possible that there is something wrong - I did point out concerns about Williams' testing. But you plainly have never been in a real mediaeval fight. You may be a veteran of a modern battlefield - I'd not be surprised if you'd seen action in the Sandbox, for example. But that gives little insight into the value of mail in combat.
Chuck G.:
--- Quote from: Sir Wolf on 2015-03-28, 12:19:16 ---
--- Quote from: Chuck G. on 2015-03-27, 01:35:09 --- Seriously, have you really had someone try to run you through with an actual battle worthy (as opposed to blunted reenactment) spear, or try to cleave you from shoulder to navel with a razor sharp Dane axe?
--- End quote ---
see hahaha actually yes. we've done lots of tests and guess what, the padding wouldn't have made a hill of beans. wanna know why? cause the spear head went right thru the riveted mail on all accounts. over and over and over.
ever shot a 25 layer jack with a longbow to test it? i have didn't go thru that. now the arrow went thru a lesser one and hit the mail under it. boy that was fun day.
ever seen a lip cut open from infantry vs horseman testing? ehhehe he spit his chewing tobacco thru the hole hehehe fun day of testing.
don't make assumptions that you can't back up with facts. it makes for bad history and aliens on tv. now discoveries are made every day that are jaw dropping and inspiring. i will wait for the professionals to tell me and not the internet.
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Split lips do not equal split heads. Certainly SCA style combat results in injuries. It seldom results in deaths, and is not the same thing as a real mediaeval battle (though, in fairness, as close as you can get without being thrown in jail...). Nor are "tests" the same thing as actual combat, so my assertion that you have not been in real mediaeval combat is still perfectly correct. Yes, you may be a real war hero on the modern battlefield (as far as I'm concerned, pretty much anyone who deployed over there is a hero) and have taken fire, but that has very little if any bearing on this particular discussion point.
Sir Wolf:
oh good grief
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