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How to put on 12th century armor
Sir Wolf:
--- Quote from: Chuck G. on 2015-03-27, 01:35:09 --- Seriously, have you really had someone try to run you through with an actual battle worthy (as opposed to blunted reenactment) spear, or try to cleave you from shoulder to navel with a razor sharp Dane axe?
--- End quote ---
see hahaha actually yes. we've done lots of tests and guess what, the padding wouldn't have made a hill of beans. wanna know why? cause the spear head went right thru the riveted mail on all accounts. over and over and over.
ever shot a 25 layer jack with a longbow to test it? i have didn't go thru that. now the arrow went thru a lesser one and hit the mail under it. boy that was fun day.
ever seen a lip cut open from infantry vs horseman testing? ehhehe he spit his chewing tobacco thru the hole hehehe fun day of testing.
don't make assumptions that you can't back up with facts. it makes for bad history and aliens on tv. now discoveries are made every day that are jaw dropping and inspiring. i will wait for the professionals to tell me and not the internet.
Sir James A:
--- Quote from: Chuck G. on 2015-03-27, 01:46:17 ---But until then the currently available (indirect) evidence clearly shows that padding was necessary.
--- End quote ---
I'll nitpick this a little bit, and say padding wasn't and isn't NECESSARY, but it certainly is BENEFICIAL.
Every test I've seen where attempting to pierce mail and/or padding underneath is done over a solid surface, like a wooden pell. I'd like to see one over a ballistics gel torso, or something that has the same "give" as a human body being struck. I'd bet the penetration and break rates are lower when the target has movement to it, rather than a fixed solid backing.
In my opinion, the tests we've seen against those solid-backed targets are more indicative of what might happen if you got shot / thrusted when you had your back solid against a solid object (like a wall), and not a battlefield attack.
Sir Edward:
--- Quote from: Sir James A on 2015-03-28, 16:01:46 ---Every test I've seen where attempting to pierce mail and/or padding underneath is done over a solid surface, like a wooden pell. I'd like to see one over a ballistics gel torso, or something that has the same "give" as a human body being struck. I'd bet the penetration and break rates are lower when the target has movement to it, rather than a fixed solid backing.
In my opinion, the tests we've seen against those solid-backed targets are more indicative of what might happen if you got shot / thrusted when you had your back solid against a solid object (like a wall), and not a battlefield attack.
--- End quote ---
This is a very important point. Part of the reason mail armor works as well as it does, is because it's a machine with moving parts. The links pull in around the "puckering" caused by a thrust, using more of them to spread the impact. But to do so, the material underneath has to be soft. Padding will help. A person underneath can provide this as well. The damage to the armor will always be greater when it can't move.
But having said that, you can put considerable force behind a spear, and mail with or without padding may be insufficient protection.
Aiden of Oreland:
--- Quote from: Sir Edward on 2015-03-30, 13:04:19 ---
--- Quote from: Sir James A on 2015-03-28, 16:01:46 ---Every test I've seen where attempting to pierce mail and/or padding underneath is done over a solid surface, like a wooden pell. I'd like to see one over a ballistics gel torso, or something that has the same "give" as a human body being struck. I'd bet the penetration and break rates are lower when the target has movement to it, rather than a fixed solid backing.
In my opinion, the tests we've seen against those solid-backed targets are more indicative of what might happen if you got shot / thrusted when you had your back solid against a solid object (like a wall), and not a battlefield attack.
--- End quote ---
This is a very important point. Part of the reason mail armor works as well as it does, is because it's a machine with moving parts. The links pull in around the "puckering" caused by a thrust, using more of them to spread the impact. But to do so, the material underneath has to be soft. Padding will help. A person underneath can provide this as well. The damage to the armor will always be greater when it can't move.
But having said that, you can put considerable force behind a spear, and mail with or without padding may be insufficient protection.
--- End quote ---
All very true, but mail isn't designed for impact warfare. It's for cuts and slashes. That's why plate armor came about. That being said, getting a whack is inevitable. The padding just acts as a layer to absorb some of the shock. It also acts as a second defense against the little point that makes it through, like that of an arrow or sword tip. do you think it's possible padding was made with boiled wool to help create a greater defense?
Sir William:
Any armor can be compromised, there was no such thing as a fully proofed harness. Since we are talking about personal belief:
--- Quote ---My position is this: I do not believe that mail, by itself, is effective, and that it must be combined with some sort of padding to absorb shock to allow it maximum efficiency in preventing injury from attack. I base this on scientific, controlled testing Alan Williams performed for his book “Knight and the Blast Furnace”.
--- End quote ---
...it is my belief that armor was largely psychological in aspect. That is, it made the wearer more capable in a fight (or rather, that he/she believed this to be the case) and (the hope anyway) it intimidated the opponent. There are countless examples where armor did not keep its wearer from being killed. It isn't perfect- much depended on the wearer being good enough to avoid a killing blow, the armor serves to bolster that ability. That is my belief.
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