Mildly GoT-Related Question

[Vincent]

Ok, will dance around dropping spoilers, but this is a question of honor vaguely inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones. For the sake of those intending to read/watch, I will not go into details, and keep it as vague as possible.

So, the situation is this:

Your liege lord, who you are sworn to obey and protect to the death, is under attack without hope of victory. In order to cause as much damage to those who have wronged him as possible, he orders that the city that is his capitol be set aflame, burning not only the attacking armies but the people who have made the city their home. However, there is only yourself, and the man who he has just given this order to present for this command.

Is it better to follow the directive of your liege, or to put a stop to it, forswearing your vow of obedience in the process?

(Sorry for the vagueness, but I truly don't wish to spoil plot information for anyone)

[Sir Patrick]

Forswear your oath. It was an immoral order and you are not bound to obey.

[Ian]

Forswear your oath. It was an immoral order and you are not bound to obey.

Yep, just like a modern day soldier.  Unlawful orders....


kingslayer.... 

[Lord Dane]

Forswear your oath. It was an immoral order and you are not bound to obey.

Yep, just like a modern day soldier.  Unlawful orders....


kingslayer.... 

More correctly 'Kingslayer' & 'Sis-layer'

[Sir Patrick]

Forswear your oath. It was an immoral order and you are not bound to obey.

Yep, just like a modern day soldier.  Unlawful orders....


kingslayer.... 

More correctly 'Kingslayer' & 'Sis-layer'

[Thorsteinn]

In war, innocent casualties happen, but we should not seek them for our own aggrandizement. We should seek to minimize them, but not hesitate to strike if it is right to do so.

The Battle is lost. The order to set the city aflame is about pride and madness, not war & tactics. Nor even about honor & sticking it to the other guy one last time. This isn't Massada, nor Thermopolae. It's akin to a Jihadi holding others hostage so he can lure in his enemies and kill everyone.

Disobey the order, be prepared to kill you liege should he seek to carry it out.

[Thorsteinn]

And because I'm a nerd I looked this up. It's proof that, even though he's a complete bastard, Jaime does have some Honor. How much more would he have had, if he had his side heard is anyone's guess.

[Jaime enters the bath tub where Brienne is, sighing in relief]
Jaime Lannister: If I faint, pull me out. I don't intend to be the first Lannister to die in a bath tub.

Brienne of Tarth: Why should I care how you die?

Jaime Lannister: You swore a solemn vow, remember? You are supposed to get me to King's Landing in one piece. Not going so well, is it? No wonder Renly died with you guarding him.

[Brienne jumps on her feet furiously, looking at Jaime offended. Jaime looks at her naked body, then lowers his head]
Jaime Lannister: That was unworthy. Forgive me. You protected me better than most...

Brienne of Tarth: [quietly] Don't you mock me.

Jaime Lannister: I'm apologizing. I'm sick of fighting. Let's call a truce.

Brienne of Tarth: You need trust to have a truce.

Jaime Lannister: I trust you.

[Brienne sits back, looking at Jaime loathingly]
Jaime Lannister: There it is. There's the look. I've seen it for seventeen years on face after face. You all despise me. Kingslayer. Oathbreaker. A man without honor. You've heard of wildfire?

Brienne of Tarth: Of course.

[Jaime tells Brienne what has happened in that fateful day he killed Aerys. Brienne listens intently]
Jaime Lannister: The Mad King was obsessed with it. He loved to watch people burn, the way their skin blackened and blistered and melted off their bones. He burned lords he didn't like. He burned Hands who disobeyed him. He burned anyone who was against him. Before long, half the country was against him. Aerys saw traitors everywhere. So he had his pyromancer place caches of wildfire all over the city. Beneath the Sept of Baelor and the slums of Flea Bottom. Under houses, stables, taverns. Even beneath the Red Keep itself. Finally, the day of reckoning came. Robert Baratheon marched on the capital after his victory at the Trident. But my father arrived first with the whole Lannister army at his back, promising to defend the city against the rebels. I knew my father better than that. He's never been one to pick the losing side. I told the Mad King as much. I urged him to surrender peacefully. But the king didn't listen to me. He didn't listen to Varys who tried to warn him. But he did listen to Grand Maester Pycelle, that grey sunken c***. "You can trust the Lannisters," he said "The Lannisters have always been true friends of the crown". So we opened the gates and my father sacked the city. Once again, I came to the king, begging him to surrender. He told me to bring him my father's head. Then he turned to his pyromancer. "Burn them all," he said "Burn them in their homes. Burn them in their beds". Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men, women, and children burned alive, would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then?

[Brienne does not answer. Jaime continues his story]
Jaime Lannister: First, I killed the pyromancer. And then, when the king turned to flee, I drove my sword into his back. "Burn them all," he kept saying "Burn them all". I don't think he expected to die. He... he meant to... burn with the rest of us and rise again, reborn as a dragon to turn his enemies to ash. I slit his throat to make sure that didn't happen. That's where Ned Stark found me.

Brienne of Tarth: If this is true... why didn't you tell anyone? Why didn't you tell Lord Stark?

Jaime Lannister: [bitterly] Stark? You think the *honorable* Ned Stark wanted to hear my side? He judged me guilty the moment he set eyes on me. By what right does the wolf judge the lion?

[Jaime starts to stand]
Jaime Lannister: [furiously] By what right?
[Jaime, too weak to stand on his feet, stumbles and falls into the water. Brienne manages to catch him before he drowns]

Brienne of Tarth: [shouts] Guards! The Kingslayer!

Jaime Lannister: [whispers painfully] Jaime... my name is Jaime.

[/size]

[Sir William]

I'm a big Jamie fan, despite the fact that he's doing his sister.  It wasn't unheard of in our own history - the Egyptians were notorious for their brother-sister marriages to keep the ruling family in the family, as it were.

Some things I noted about Jaime as I read was that he is the only male character to have remained faithful to his woman- even the noblest man in all Westeros, Ned Stark, had a bastard out of wedlock and it is suggested he was no stranger to the girls before Catelyn.  Jaime has only ever been with his sister, as twisted as that seems.

The only oath he ever broke was the one he swore as a member of the Kingsguard - slaying that insane man was probably the single greatest act in that battle; had Ned thought about it he would've thanked JL for paying that nutjob back for what he did to his father and brother...instead he took an instant dislike to him because he saw him sitting on the throne when he rode in on his horse.

I think Martin's twisted sense of humor is at play here...the very model of knighthood is also one of the most vilified and hated characters in the series.

[Sir Patrick]

The brother-sister thing is pretty creepy, but in the story the Targarians all intermarried to keep the bloodline pure. In the first book, Danyrius even mentioned that before she was betrothed to Kahl Drogo she assumed she would marry her brother. Kinda weird how the people of Westeros didn't have a problem with Targareon incest, but they freak out about Lannieters. Off course I think the whole bit is pretty gross.

[Ian]

I'm a big Jamie fan, despite the fact that he's doing his sister.  It wasn't unheard of in our own history - the Egyptians were notorious for their brother-sister marriages to keep the ruling family in the family, as it were.

Some things I noted about Jaime as I read was that he is the only male character to have remained faithful to his woman- even the noblest man in all Westeros, Ned Stark, had a bastard out of wedlock and it is suggested he was no stranger to the girls before Catelyn.  Jaime has only ever been with his sister, as twisted as that seems.

The only oath he ever broke was the one he swore as a member of the Kingsguard - slaying that insane man was probably the single greatest act in that battle; had Ned thought about it he would've thanked JL for paying that nutjob back for what he did to his father and brother...instead he took an instant dislike to him because he saw him sitting on the throne when he rode in on his horse.

I think Martin's twisted sense of humor is at play here...the very model of knighthood is also one of the most vilified and hated characters in the series.

Agreed on Jaime.  Despite his character failings, he's probably one of the most honorable men in all of Westeros.  As for Ned Stark... I have a theory about his indiscretion that I think will be revealed in a future book

[Sir Patrick]

I'm betting we have the same theory. The seed is strong, as they say

[Thorsteinn]

I have a theory about his indiscretion that I think will be revealed in a future book

Share with the class. Is it that Jon Snow is Stannis's son?

[Ian]

I have a theory about his indiscretion that I think will be revealed in a future book

Share with the class. Is it that Jon Snow is Stannis's son?

****WARNING, THEORETICAL SPOILER ALERT*****














So, the best theory I was exposed to and circulates in certain circles was this... Consider that Ned is so honor bound that it basically results in his own death.  He isn't willing to compromise any of his principles, literally to his end.  So why would a man like this so honor bound go off to war and cheat on his wife and come back with a son?  He wouldn't.

Meanwhile Lyanna Stark was a little bit smitten by Raegar Targaryen.  Then suddenly during  Robert's Rebellion, Lyanna Stark dies in Ned's arms.   Ned swears some great promise to Lyanna as she dies.  Her last words are 'promise me Ned!' And then he suddenly has a son named Jon...  Ned's willing to bear the shame of his fake indiscretion because of he is bound by his honor to Lyanna.  Making Jon the son of a Stark and a Targaryen... the Song of Ice and Fire if you will.. heyyyooooooo!!!

[Sir Patrick]

Interesting premise. Mine's similar:
!!!POTENTIAL SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!

Same idea as to the why, but I'm thinking Jon is Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark. I'm thinking when the whole story shakes out, Jon and Danarys will end up together, uniting the lines of the Mad King and the Usurper, making everyone happy (except the Lannisters).

[Timothy]

Hello, This sounds like the scored earth policy Hitler ordered when all was lost. Speer was ordered to destroy any and everything of use and value. He ignored the order.

He was more than right to do so.

Timothy