Historical HEMA Tournaments and Deeds of Arms

[Ian]

Sir James brings up something.  Are steel blunts really hard on armor?  It shouldn't be denting spring steel or thick milds.

[Lord Dane]

Sir James brings up something.  Are steel blunts really hard on armor?  It shouldn't be denting spring steel or thick milds.

I'll answer that with pics of my 14 gauge Pembridge. Yes they hit hard and most of my dings are from aluminum ones. Spring steel should barely be dinged.

[Sir Nate]

Sir James brings up something.  Are steel blunts really hard on armor?  It shouldn't be denting spring steel or thick milds.

I'll answer that with pics of my 14 gauge Pembridge. Yes they hit hard and most of my dings are from aluminum ones. Spring steel should barely be dinged.

Spring steel is bit of an easier fix.
Before some cares to argue this, I have a bad argument of why they might be, My foil in fencing can bend easy, and then it will stay bent, but it is easy to unbend, I know a helm or breastplate is a lot different, but.... It is still spring steel. (I think I may be 83% wrong on this matter)

[Sir Patrick]

One fencing mask would probably cover everyone's oculars with some to spare.

[Sir Edward]

Sir James brings up something.  Are steel blunts really hard on armor?  It shouldn't be denting spring steel or thick milds.

It depends. The typical 3-weapon fencing mask isn't meant for larger swords, but they stand up just fine for typical friendly fighting. But it's definitely possible to cave one in, even with a shinai, using enough power.

The same thing is true with plate armor of course. Damage will be minimal most of the time, but it's certainly possible to beat it up. My steel gaunts that I use for Blossfechten aren't particularly well made, but they're beaten all to hell from use as well.

And then, circling back to fencing masks, I've had the same one since the mid-'90s, and it's still in great working condition. My Terry Tindell mask is made of stainless, and that one is in great shape after some pretty hard hits too.

So I think my answer would be, "it depends"

[Sir Wolf]

steel dents. swords break lol. I've been fighting unscripted steel for years. its fun if your safe and do the correct movements and correct counter blocks. I've seen a few accidents, like a sword cutting threw a guys lower lip (inbetween the lip and chin. but for hard hitting steel or fast paced, you better believe it's gonna get ruff on someone. that kinda fighting you need perf plate over eye holes etc

[Sir Edward]

Yeah, that's been my safety concern all along with the eyes-- It might be a million to one, but someone, sometime, is going to find a way to make it happen.

[Sir James A]

Sir James brings up something.  Are steel blunts really hard on armor?  It shouldn't be denting spring steel or thick milds.

Steel on steel is more abrasive than wood, so you'll get nicks and dings that the wooden wasters don't leave. Primarily will be edges, in particular any flutes, rolled edges (like at the elbows / armpits) where it's getting thrust at. The rough edges of steel trainers will start to chew at the edges of armor, and vice versa, and both of them will start to chew at fabric over time. The center crease on my breastplate has lots of nicks from nothing more than taps to the chest at our first year of demos saying "hey, armor works against steel swords". Enough that Allan couldn't even fix it and it bugs me every time I put it on.

Granted, it's 16 gauge mild, but if I'm coughing up $7500+ on a heat treated spring steel harness, I don't want it getting torn up. I like armor and it pains me to see it injured. I'm often frustrated just taking dents out of my helmets.

[Ian]

Granted, it's 16 gauge mild...

And if you're going to cough up $7500+ for a spring steel harness, you're paying that much because it shouldn't get torn up.  At least that should be one of the benefits of spring.  The steel it self is a lot less resilient to wear and tear.  Anyone try this with spring to know or sure?

The most I do is stab my helmet all the time in demos to show the glancing properties of a bascinet (I use steel weapons for this) and I get tiny little scratches that buff out.  This is not the same as bashing it, but I think with a controlled blow it certainly won't dent...

[Sir James A]

Granted, it's 16 gauge mild...

And if you're going to cough up $7500+ for a spring steel harness, you're paying that much because it shouldn't get torn up.

No no, if I'm paying that much, it's because I need another advantage over Sir Nathan and I'm paying a premium for a lighter kit.

At least that should be one of the benefits of spring.  The steel it self is a lot less resilient to wear and tear.  Anyone try this with spring to know or sure?

The most I do is stab my helmet all the time in demos to show the glancing properties of a bascinet (I use steel weapons for this) and I get tiny little scratches that buff out.  This is not the same as bashing it, but I think with a controlled blow it certainly won't dent...

I think you mean more resilient to wear and tear, not less? I'd be curious to know the answer to that. I'm still going to decline solely on the eye slots basis, but I do find the conversation interesting and useful to know about.

[Ian]

Yes, I meant more resilient.

I don't think anyone's asking you to do this.  I'm just trying to find out how it's done safely, because it is being done safely.  Once again, I'm not trying to convince anyone to try it, I just want to know the facts and evidence before making up my own mind, and not just accept thought experiments and bad thought statistics as proof of anything.

[Sir Brian]

I'm still going to decline solely on the eye slots basis, but I do find the conversation interesting and useful to know about.

Well if the welding of perforated steel mesh inside the visor oculars work and you all send me your visors so I could do the same for you all, then I could be *encouraged* to “accidentally” substitute a solid plate of steel over Sir Nathan’s visor oculars so he’d be like Luke Skywalker learning to use a light-saber the first time. ~ We could call it his handicap for his youthful vigor! 

[Ian]

Once again I remind folks the purpose of this discussion is not to convince the Order to use steel weapons.  It is to question a faulty way of thinking.

The premise that 'steel is dangerous' is what I'm questioning here and want to know based on what actual evidence is that so, if it is so at all.

So far we've acknowledged cost, wear and damage to gear, and eyes.

Cost is definitely higher for a quality steel weapon over a waster.

Wear and tear is a factor for mild steel, and maybe spring steels (but we have no testing on the spring steel aspect)

Eyes is based solely on 'aahhhh scary, 1 in a million is still a chance!"  That's not evidence or statistics, it's literally superstition and hearsay.  How do we find out how dangerous it really is?  And we do know this could be mitigated with perf plate or slotted oculars.

So, right now for the added cost of steel weapons, and potentially upgraded armor with appropriate safety features (like perf plates or slotted oculars), it sounds like the physical evidence points to steel being safer than wood if you have the right stuff and are willing to spend the money.

[Sir Edward]

So, right now for the added cost of steel weapons, and potentially upgraded armor with appropriate safety features (like perf plates or slotted oculars), it sounds like the physical evidence points to steel being safer than wood if you have the right stuff and are willing to spend the money.

Yep, that right there.

[Sir James A]

So, right now for the added cost of steel weapons, and potentially upgraded armor with appropriate safety features (like perf plates or slotted oculars), it sounds like the physical evidence points to steel being safer than wood if you have the right stuff and are willing to spend the money.

Yep, that right there.

While I've been one of the dissenting opinions, I'm agreed 100% on this too, possibly with the caveat of modified rule set.

I'll agree that I'm probably heavy on the superstition and hearsay of eye slot injuries since I just got my nose whopped.

Actually, if we want to test durability of carbon steel armor vs steel swords, I know a guy with a carbon steel harness, if we can get him to come up and swing swords with us sometime.