"You will never do anything in this world without courage. It is the greatest quality of the mind next to honor."
                -- James Allen

Author Topic: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands  (Read 20511 times)

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #30 on: 2014-04-20, 21:28:47 »
Is WMA the same way as HEMA? Also is one more historical than the other?

same thing
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #31 on: 2014-04-21, 13:09:48 »
Is WMA the same way as HEMA? Also is one more historical than the other?

same thing

Right, basically the same thing, with just a minor distinction:

WMA - Western Martial Arts, which is more encompassing, because it can include modern martial arts, such as modern knife throwing, or boxing (the term "Martial Art" often includes associated sports here).

HEMA - Historical European Martial Arts, which is more specific to historical Europe.
« Last Edit: 2014-04-21, 13:11:18 by Sir Edward »
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #32 on: 2014-04-21, 19:14:13 »
Is WMA the same way as HEMA? Also is one more historical than the other?

same thing

Right, basically the same thing, with just a minor distinction:

WMA - Western Martial Arts, which is more encompassing, because it can include modern martial arts, such as modern knife throwing, or boxing (the term "Martial Art" often includes associated sports here).

HEMA - Historical European Martial Arts, which is more specific to historical Europe.

HEMA only teaches you how to use a two handed sword right? I want to take WMA because it offers sword and shield, but if HEMA offers that too then I would gladly take that instead.
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #33 on: 2014-04-21, 19:36:28 »
HEMA only teaches you how to use a two handed sword right? I want to take WMA because it offers sword and shield, but if HEMA offers that too then I would gladly take that instead.

No, you're being way too specific. :)

WMA/HEMA are both very broad categories. For instance, both encompass German, French, Italian, English, Spanish martial arts, ranging from unarmed, through all sorts of weapons. They're just a descriptive term for where/when these arts came from.

Getting more specific than that, for instance with the German Liechtenauer system that we do locally, it still covers unarmed, dagger, messer, single-hand sword, sword and buckler, longsword, staff, poleaxe, spear, mounted combat, and more.

For sword and buckler, both the German and Italian schools cover those a great deal. The German arts focus a lot on the longsword as a teaching weapon, but they don't stop there.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #34 on: 2014-04-21, 20:25:17 »
WMA is a little broader in that it can include bowie knife, knife and tomahawk, etc.
A splinter group which trains with MASHS using the same venue and timeslot, offer some of those more fringe weapon systems. It makes for some interesting 'King of the Hill' matchups on our free-play Sundays when they chose to participate. :)
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #35 on: 2014-04-21, 21:48:19 »
HEMA only teaches you how to use a two handed sword right? I want to take WMA because it offers sword and shield, but if HEMA offers that too then I would gladly take that instead.

No, you're being way too specific. :)

WMA/HEMA are both very broad categories. For instance, both encompass German, French, Italian, English, Spanish martial arts, ranging from unarmed, through all sorts of weapons. They're just a descriptive term for where/when these arts came from.

Getting more specific than that, for instance with the German Liechtenauer system that we do locally, it still covers unarmed, dagger, messer, single-hand sword, sword and buckler, longsword, staff, poleaxe, spear, mounted combat, and more.

For sword and buckler, both the German and Italian schools cover those a great deal. The German arts focus a lot on the longsword as a teaching weapon, but they don't stop there.

Hmm... Well then, I might take HEMA, for I am not interested in learning about those modern combat skills, unless airsofting allowed for hand to hand lol. I am affraid I don't know how the school systems work. Do you go there and they progressively teach you all of this, or do you sign up for a coarse?

Now I understand that for all the equipment together (long sword and wears) it is about $1000. But will I need to purchase all the other stuff as I progress through the coarses?

By schools, do you mean multiple buildings or under one roof a HEMA group will teach you these schools of fighting techniques.
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #36 on: 2014-04-21, 23:03:14 »
Lol it really isn't that structured...yet! ;)

Basically most 'schools' are a few people with a similar interest who purchase some of the available reference material that has been translated by other individuals and they 'rediscover' how it is all applied. Since the resurrection of these lost martial arts are far from complete it is very much an ongoing process. As classic students of fencing become involved there is more of a modernized sport flavor to it but essentially it is still a few folks trying to make heads and tails of interpreted and reinterpreted medieval and renaissance period manuscripts. The more established or renowned 'schools' are the ones whose primary instructor(s) were involved at the very beginning of resurrecting the arts. However when you get right down to it, both you and Nate could start your own 'school', all you need is some good resource material.

As for equipment you don't have to drop $1,000 to get started. Basic wooden wasters, a basic fencing mask and lacrosse gloves would be sufficient protection for drills and very light and slow duels. Decent and serviceable steel blades can be had for a low as $300 but you'll also have to increase your protection with elbow and forearm padding (lacrosse is typical), a decent padded fencing jacket or gambeson if you want to go at speed and hit with intent.  ;)
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

scott2978

  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 195
  • Be generous, passionate, and resolute
    • Dice and Steel
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #37 on: 2014-04-22, 01:53:27 »
You're missing the point Scott.  It's not about living or dying by the sword, or having a better experience than someone else.  It's about athleticism being integral to ANY sport.

It's about HEMA being the only martial art that doesn't seem to universally accept that traditional conditioning and strength training are vitally important to a martial art.  MMA, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioners don't live or die by their art.  But they certainly don't eschew the ideals of physical fitness and conditioning as an integral part of their sport.  It's just an observation.  It's just less emphasized in HEMA than I've seen in any other martial art at the competitive level.  The source documents address it and depict lots of scenes of men lifting heavy rocks and conditioning themselves, but these are the images that never seem to get reproduced by modern scholars for some reason, whether literally, or in the weight room.  I don't get it.  And yes, there are of course counterexamples of people who do take it very seriously as the athletic endeavor that it is, but it seems to  be the exception.  I think it would go a long way in getting the sport taken seriously in the mainstream as more than just a scholarly endeavor.

Sure, the guy just doing a martial art purely for fun is a different story, but that's not what I'm talking about here.  This isn't a case of trying to tell people how to have their fun.

I understand, the point of athleticism being integral to achievement in any martial art is valid. Which is not to say that a couch vegetable type person can't participate, but rather that to reach the pinacle of the art one's body must be in proper shape. I certainly concede the point.

What I was referring to is more the tendancy of some practitioners to go too far in their assessment, comparing their training styles and their experiences to that of a real medieval warrior. In reality the two are as far removed as a friendly paintball match and the Battle of Mogadishu. Perhaps ironically, most people will not be able to comprehend the totality of that difference either.

As always I hold you opinions in high regard Sir Ian,

Scott


Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #38 on: 2014-04-22, 03:16:32 »
Lol it really isn't that structured...yet! ;)

Basically most 'schools' are a few people with a similar interest who purchase some of the available reference material that has been translated by other individuals and they 'rediscover' how it is all applied. Since the resurrection of these lost martial arts are far from complete it is very much an ongoing process. As classic students of fencing become involved there is more of a modernized sport flavor to it but essentially it is still a few folks trying to make heads and tails of interpreted and reinterpreted medieval and renaissance period manuscripts. The more established or renowned 'schools' are the ones whose primary instructor(s) were involved at the very beginning of resurrecting the arts. However when you get right down to it, both you and Nate could start your own 'school', all you need is some good resource material.

As for equipment you don't have to drop $1,000 to get started. Basic wooden wasters, a basic fencing mask and lacrosse gloves would be sufficient protection for drills and very light and slow duels. Decent and serviceable steel blades can be had for a low as $300 but you'll also have to increase your protection with elbow and forearm padding (lacrosse is typical), a decent padded fencing jacket or gambeson if you want to go at speed and hit with intent.  ;)

Do you think it wise to go to the school first, learn the requirements, then purchase? The reason I said $1000 was because the a HEMA site showed the swords I needed and the equipment. I forget the site, the top of the page showed two men fighting in this gear. Oh, I thought HEMA had schools like fencing schools  ??? Make my own school you, I don't know about schools, but I'm pushing for a chivalry club if that counts lol
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #39 on: 2014-04-22, 13:26:21 »
(replying to two conversations in the thread)

To be fair, the competition scene is really only getting started in the WMA/HEMA world. Only in the last two years, I'd say, has it started to pick up, and we're seeing some fairly athletic people involved in it.

But I'd say a much larger proportion of practitioners are just hobbyists, or are coming at it from a more scholastic angle, where they want to do enough of it to know how it works, but don't plan to ever be "good" at it.

Over at VAF, while I was still taking classes there, most of my classmates were taking their fitness very seriously. Some of them made an arrangement to work together to be able to work up to doing 100 burpees daily, for instance.

Personally, I fall into the more casual hobbyist category most of the time, and then try to do a mad dash to build up endurance before large events like WMAW. :)

Do you think it wise to go to the school first, learn the requirements, then purchase? The reason I said $1000 was because the a HEMA site showed the swords I needed and the equipment. I forget the site, the top of the page showed two men fighting in this gear. Oh, I thought HEMA had schools like fencing schools  ??? Make my own school you, I don't know about schools, but I'm pushing for a chivalry club if that counts lol

Yes, most "schools" start out as study-groups, or sword clubs, or something along those lines. There are very few paid, professional schools teaching this, but they do exist. A great example is VAF, where I took formal classes for Liechtenauer arts for about 8 or 9 years.

Almost everyone else starts small, with a couple of friends and a few books, and work through the material. It helps to interact with people who are already doing it, to correct some of the mistakes and bad habits you might pick up, but if you're doing the bulk of the learning yourself, then those interactions can be quick and effective.

And yes, for most activities in general, it's best to see what your local group recommends for equipment, before buying anything. This is harder to do if you're starting the group yourself, of course, but there's a wide range of gear that's usually acceptable in most places.

For starting out as a pure beginner, as Sir Brian mentioned, you'll do really well to start with lacrosse gloves, a 3-weapon fencing mask (they're the tougher version), and some sort of training sword. This will be enough for doing paired drills, and the like. The trainer can be a wooden waster (more period), or perhaps one of the synthetics from Purple Heart, which cost about the same, but are safer for hitting each other. Or you can go super cheap and even more safe, and start with a shinai. However, they're not as good of a teaching weapon in that they lack the weight and feel of a longsword, and don't have a proper crossguard (which is important for certain techniques).

The nice thing is that you can start cheap that way, and then pick out the more expensive gambesons and steel trainers after you start to get a feel for what you're doing.
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #40 on: 2014-04-22, 16:30:16 »
Hmm... Well then, I might take HEMA, for I am not interested in learning about those modern combat skills, unless airsofting allowed for hand to hand lol.

Also, I should point out that HEMA is a subset of WMA. If you're doing HEMA, you're also doing WMA, but the reverse isn't always true. :)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Mike W.

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #41 on: 2014-04-22, 16:39:37 »
Hmm... Well then, I might take HEMA, for I am not interested in learning about those modern combat skills, unless airsofting allowed for hand to hand lol.

Just saying... Modern combat skills do come in handy when someone tries to knife you. Then again, I'm sure dagger combat skills could work well too.
D’azur à trois fasces d’argent, et au chef gueule chargé de trois étoiles d’or.

"The first duty of a man is the seeking after and the investigation of truth." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: Pells and physical training. WAS: Re: Armor stands
« Reply #42 on: 2014-04-22, 20:13:21 »


Do you think it wise to go to the school first, learn the requirements, then purchase? The reason I said $1000 was because the a HEMA site showed the swords I needed and the equipment. I forget the site, the top of the page showed two men fighting in this gear. Oh, I thought HEMA had schools like fencing schools  ??? Make my own school you, I don't know about schools, but I'm pushing for a chivalry club if that counts lol

Yes, most "schools" start out as study-groups, or sword clubs, or something along those lines. There are very few paid, professional schools teaching this, but they do exist. A great example is VAF, where I took formal classes for Liechtenauer arts for about 8 or 9 years.

Almost everyone else starts small, with a couple of friends and a few books, and work through the material. It helps to interact with people who are already doing it, to correct some of the mistakes and bad habits you might pick up, but if you're doing the bulk of the learning yourself, then those interactions can be quick and effective.

And yes, for most activities in general, it's best to see what your local group recommends for equipment, before buying anything. This is harder to do if you're starting the group yourself, of course, but there's a wide range of gear that's usually acceptable in most places.

For starting out as a pure beginner, as Sir Brian mentioned, you'll do really well to start with lacrosse gloves, a 3-weapon fencing mask (they're the tougher version), and some sort of training sword. This will be enough for doing paired drills, and the like. The trainer can be a wooden waster (more period), or perhaps one of the synthetics from Purple Heart, which cost about the same, but are safer for hitting each other. Or you can go super cheap and even more safe, and start with a shinai. However, they're not as good of a teaching weapon in that they lack the weight and feel of a longsword, and don't have a proper crossguard (which is important for certain techniques).

The nice thing is that you can start cheap that way, and then pick out the more expensive gambesons and steel trainers after you start to get a feel for what you're doing.

Makes sense, hopefully this summer I'll meet with one of the local HEMA schools in Philly.

Hmm... Well then, I might take HEMA, for I am not interested in learning about those modern combat skills, unless airsofting allowed for hand to hand lol.

Just saying... Modern combat skills do come in handy when someone tries to knife you. Then again, I'm sure dagger combat skills could work well too.

I'll just have my third degree black belt father teach me that, he has taught me a thing or two about knife defense.

On the main subject (I must apologize for throwing an off subject topic in here) I personally would do SCA as a sport and a hobby. I would prepare myself physically to be a better combatant and to resemble a true knight on the battle field. I would partake in it as if it were a sport like football or soccer. At the same time I would do it for the scholar/hobby approach. I recognize its not completely necessary, but I take matters like these very seriously. Like how I would choose wool clothes and fabrics over cotton.
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max