"He that respects himself is safe from others; he wears a coat of mail that none can pierce."
                -- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Author Topic: Sabatons  (Read 11194 times)

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: Sabatons
« Reply #15 on: 2014-03-19, 14:58:52 »
 BAD.  ASS.  Love it.
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.â€

Sir Martyn

  • Knight Itinerant
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • ****
  • Posts: 416
  • Courage Honor Faith Humility Justice Prowess Mercy
Re: Sabatons
« Reply #16 on: 2014-04-30, 02:05:58 »
Look great, Sir Ian!
Among the greatest evils we face are those which lie within.


scott2978

  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 195
  • Be generous, passionate, and resolute
    • Dice and Steel
Re: Sabatons
« Reply #17 on: 2014-06-11, 00:05:22 »
Sir Iran, did you find much in the way of historical reference for your heel plates? I'm preparing to have my sabs refurbished and was considering adding heel plates, but I notice that Jeff's post over on AA that sparked debate as to their historical use (from back in February!) is still going strong to this day. I'm curious about your own opinion/research.

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: Sabatons
« Reply #18 on: 2014-06-11, 01:05:09 »
Good stuff there.
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: Sabatons
« Reply #19 on: 2014-06-11, 02:22:35 »
Sir Iran, did you find much in the way of historical reference for your heel plates? I'm preparing to have my sabs refurbished and was considering adding heel plates, but I notice that Jeff's post over on AA that sparked debate as to their historical use (from back in February!) is still going strong to this day. I'm curious about your own opinion/research.

Sir Iran?  I swear I'm an American!! :)

There's definitely some artwork that supports heel coverage on the sabaton in the late 14th / early 15th century.  Unfortunately the extant pieces like the sabatons from Chartres indicate there was never a heel plate associated with that piece.  But I think what they're discovering on that AA thread is that for every guy wearing sabs, there's at least one guy just wearing shoes, or maille only, or a sab with no heel.  So I think what's really being shown is that there's a lot of variety in foot protection during that period in time and sabaton with heel is hardly the standard or even common, but merely an option.

Here's a tetraptych from 1400, interestingly the heel seems to have lames:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/2002929645/


This images below also shows heel coverage on the sab:







My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

scott2978

  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 195
  • Be generous, passionate, and resolute
    • Dice and Steel
Re: Sabatons
« Reply #20 on: 2014-06-11, 15:57:04 »
Sorry Sir "Iran", when I make posts from my Android it's auto-spellcheck sometimes makes dumb corrections. Usually I catch them...




Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: Sabatons
« Reply #21 on: 2014-06-11, 16:00:48 »
Sorry Sir "Iran", when I make posts from my Android it's auto-spellcheck sometimes makes dumb corrections. Usually I catch them...

I know I was just kidding around.
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: Sabatons
« Reply #22 on: 2014-06-13, 16:46:07 »
Turns out I had evidence in a book of mine... The History of Armour 1100-1700, by Paul F. Walker.  pgs. 89 and 90.  Pg 90 has a photo of an original early 15th century sabaton in the author's own collection using an integrally hinged heel plate that secures with a leather strap and buckle.  There's no confusion on that piece if it's a connected heel plate, it most certainly is.

Then on page 89 is an effigy of Sir Thomas Beauchamp.  On the caption the author draws attention to the edge of the plates where you can see the division between the armor and the sole of the shoe.  It extends toward the heel implying the existence of a heel plate.  It's hard to see in the image, but it's definitely suggestive of a heel plate.  These pieces combined with the manuscript illuminations to me prove that there were certainly heel plates in the Late 14th and Early 15th centuries.  If they were the norm, I don't know.  But it looks like the definitely existed.

I would scan the images and display them, but it's expressly forbidden in the copyright section of the book without written permission from the publishers, which I do not have.

This is an internet photo of the same effigy - (Dated 1369) - and you might be able to make out what appears to be a heel plate (I've since emailed Saint Mary's Church in Warwick to see if they'll take a photo for me, long shot, but the worst they can say is no):

« Last Edit: 2014-06-14, 14:29:47 by Ian »
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

scott2978

  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 195
  • Be generous, passionate, and resolute
    • Dice and Steel
Re: Sabatons
« Reply #23 on: 2014-06-15, 19:19:37 »
Too bad about the pictures, I'd love to see an actual sabaton with a heel plate attached. I'll look around for that book though, I don't have that one. Thanks for the extra sources.