"Honor is like an island, rugged and without a beach; once we have left it, we can never return."
                -- Nicholas Boileau

Author Topic: 13th and 14th c. Kits  (Read 52834 times)

Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #45 on: 2014-02-26, 05:43:38 »
Scott, I know exactly the type of belt your talking about. I would LOVE to make my own, but that'd have to wait a bit, probably half way through the summer. My goal is to make and finish my kit by the end of the summer. I will probably work on a soft kit in between which I certainly would enjoy making a nice belt for. That too will have to be in the summer for I don't have the time during the school year. Plus, I am regetfully admiting I am yet to own an actual sword (besides from my Aragorn sword). Which I should have by the summer time. So the double wrap will have to wait until such time. I would like to say this conversation is more of a note taking. So I am prepared. That helps me out a lot, thanks :)

If you want for now, would you mind sharing some basic tools needed to make these belts and supplies so I am prepared to make a belt when the time comes?

Question, you said that the German surcoat looked different than the English one. In what way?
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max

scott2978

  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 195
  • Be generous, passionate, and resolute
    • Dice and Steel
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #46 on: 2014-02-26, 07:35:45 »
Yes, there is no difference between civilian and martial belts until the 14th century. If you plan to wear the belt interchangably just remember you'll need to place the holes in the right places.

No problem about just taking notes. Being mentally prepared for things you're going to undertake is important if you want to do it right. The more time you spend thinking about it the better IMHO.

I'll re-post the whole belt making tutorial in a new thread. 

You've probably handled a real sword by now, but if not you're in for a real treat! I wish I could be there the first time someone handles a real sword. People's minds have been unconsciously conditioned by movies and TV to think certain things about swords. When you feel one in your hand the first time your world will never be the same.

But even those who do handle them don't always appreciate the full depth of symmetrical and aesthetic beauty of a true sword. Sometimes people talk about the center of percussion of the blade or the pivot and balance points, but that's really just skin deep into the beauty of a real sword. Watch this video, and see if it changes how you think about swords.

Now, if you feel like it, research a bit further and watch Peter Johnsson's speech at Arctic Fire 2012. See if it changes how you think about medieval people.

(That's the thing that keeps me fascinated with medieval studies - one fascinating thing reveals another, and another until you're learning more than just about medieval things, you're learning about yourself and your world, and how much different they are from their medieval counterparts, and how much the same they still are.)

But however you appreciate it, the first time you hold a real sword in your hand is a magic moment. In the blink of an eye and without a single word a host of information is instantly communicated. All your preconceptions vanish, your socially programmed ignorance is washed away, and the truest beauty of the sword is made crystal clear right there in your hand. Once you've held a real sword, you'll understand why I refer to anything less as merely an "SLO" (Sword-Like-Object). It's true, you can pick up any long and pointy piece of metal and it'll kill people just as dead. But so can a crowbar. The true quality of a sword is it's design as a weapon, a tool for one specific purpose. When you hold it, you know the terrible power that you now wield. You feel the weight of responsibility to wield it responsibly. And you yearn to wield it with utter proficiency. You can use a piece of lead to draw with, but it's not a calligraphy pen. Neither is any long and pointy piece of metal a sword.

Incidentally, my feelings about the power and responsibility of carrying a sword and by extension any weapon, are reflected in the motto tooled into my sword's scabbard. "MENS CONSCIA RECTI". It's latin. Translated, it means "A mind conscious of what is right." I find it a profoundly poignant motto.

Scott

« Last Edit: 2014-02-26, 07:52:46 by scott2978 »

scott2978

  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 195
  • Be generous, passionate, and resolute
    • Dice and Steel
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #47 on: 2014-02-26, 09:19:23 »
Almost forgot to post about the surcoats.

Take a look at this with the inverted V shape cut in the front, an English style from around 1300.



And my favorite, the Cyclas, from 1350 or so. A Cyclas style surcoat is one that's shorter in front than the back.


Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #48 on: 2014-02-26, 21:48:57 »
I held a "SLO" when I was 10 and that probably got me hooked. It was like $30 but still. Then that got my brother into swords. Just holding one for the first time in my life, I felt a surge throughout my whole body. Breathless. I couldn't take my eyes off it, as if I was looking into its soul. Almost the same experience when I got my first piece of armor (but could not compare). I am really excited to get that feeling all over again when I have a REAL sword to call my own. The sentimental value of it.

That was a cool video! I had no idea swords were crafted like that. They are trully the perfect weapon.

Now having a sword custom made for thy self is probably even better than just buying a sword. In fact having anything personally made for you probably is a more awesome feeling than something premade.

Ah, so German ones are just regular straight cuts. Personally, I am more of a Jupon kind of person for 14th century. But they all look pretty cool to me :) except the really late ones that are strictly above the waist
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max

Sir William

  • Cogito ergo sum
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,154
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #49 on: 2014-02-27, 18:51:28 »
It would be cool if all swords were crafted like that, to that level of attention to detail, but a great many aren't.  As far as production swords go, Albion is at or near the top.  I remember the first Albion I ever held...it was their Arn sword from their filmswords.com website.  If you forget the aesthetics (fit, finish, fittings, etc) and just go with the aspect of how it handles, it is still worlds apart, imo.  I know Arms and Armor make swords that are lauded in the sword-loving community but I've never handled one.  Angus Trim made swords that have gone over big in the backyard cutting community, but his are all modern appliances with removable hilt components which make customization on the part of the owner easier, but is not historically accurate (to my knowledge).  Still, he makes beastly cutters and there's definitely a market for that as well as other types of swords; SLO or wallhangers as well as decent or average look-a-likes (I call them that because they have the general look but none of the attention to detail like you'd expect from Albion or A&A) to museum-specific pieces like what Albion does and of course, the custom market.  I've yet to handle a true custom- but I'm quite fine with what I currently have.  Well...I always want more but who doesn't right?
The Black Knight, Order of the Marshal
'Per Pale Azure and Sable, a Chevron counterchanged fimbriated argent.' 
“Pride makes a man, it drives him, it is the shield wall around his reputation.  Men die, but reputation does not.”

Sir Douglas

  • Artificer of Stuff and Things
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 815
  • In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram.
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #50 on: 2014-02-27, 19:43:17 »
I've yet to handle a "real" sword, most of my weapons are mere wallhangers. As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun. At least I know how to properly use those. ;) One day, though, I'd like to get my hands on a really high-quality, combat-ready sword like an Albion. I think the closest thing I own to a high-quality sword is Anduril from Lord of the Rings. While it's an absolutely beautifully-made sword and currently the crown of my collection, I still doubt it has the same feel as a real sword, and I'd never attempt to swing it around or fight with it.
Per pale azure and argent, an eagle displayed per pale argent and sable, armed and langued or.

So a Norman, a Saxon, and a Viking walk into England....

Mike W.

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #51 on: 2014-02-27, 20:20:33 »
I've had a few wallhangers and even a few antique North African swords and military sabres, but I will say nothing compares at all to the feel of an Albion. I was lucky enough to acquire a Senlac at a bargain price and I must say it feels like a natural extension to my arm. It's so perfectly balanced and handles so nicely, I could swing it all day.  ;D
D’azur à trois fasces d’argent, et au chef gueule chargé de trois étoiles d’or.

"The first duty of a man is the seeking after and the investigation of truth." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #52 on: 2014-02-28, 14:49:15 »
I've yet to handle a "real" sword, most of my weapons are mere wallhangers. As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun. At least I know how to properly use those. ;) One day, though, I'd like to get my hands on a really high-quality, combat-ready sword like an Albion. I think the closest thing I own to a high-quality sword is Anduril from Lord of the Rings. While it's an absolutely beautifully-made sword and currently the crown of my collection, I still doubt it has the same feel as a real sword, and I'd never attempt to swing it around or fight with it.

You know, I remember posting a few years ago that I just couldn't see spending more for a sword than for a handgun. And then I did. And then I did so again, and again. Once you get over that hurdle, it's addicting! :)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Sir Brian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 4,735
  • Felix uxor beatam vitam - Happy Wife Happy Life
    • Order of the Marshal
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #53 on: 2014-02-28, 18:34:57 »
I've yet to handle a "real" sword, most of my weapons are mere wallhangers. As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun. At least I know how to properly use those. ;) One day, though, I'd like to get my hands on a really high-quality, combat-ready sword like an Albion. I think the closest thing I own to a high-quality sword is Anduril from Lord of the Rings. While it's an absolutely beautifully-made sword and currently the crown of my collection, I still doubt it has the same feel as a real sword, and I'd never attempt to swing it around or fight with it.

I recall back when I was first getting interested in going to Renfaires I met a guy at PARF who didn’t have anything impressive in the way of garb but said his sword was an Albion and that it cost him over a thousand dollars. At the time, I of course didn’t know what was so significant about Albions but I remember discussing with my wife and wondered why anyone would spend that much money for something you couldn’t even take out and show off at a renfaire. Yet a few years later when I started WMA and learned how to really use several different types of swords I understood the significance and preference for a well balanced and high quality blade is worth every penny of the cost. I also had the advantage and privilege of Sir Edward as a friend who has an immense collection of blades that I could swing around and try out before I invested in my Albion Talhoffer. I use it from time to time to keep the plastic bottles from overrunning my back deck. :)
"Chivalry our Strength, Brotherhood our sword"
Vert, on a Chief wavy Argent a Rose Sable,
a Gryphon Segreant Or

[img width=100 height=100]
<a href="http://s221.photobucket.com/user/Tah908/media/LP_Medals_zpsq7zzdvve.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i221.photobucket.

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #54 on: 2014-02-28, 18:41:01 »
As blasphemous as it may sound to this group, if I were to shell out 800 bucks for a weapon, I'd be slightly more inclined to choose a nice handgun.

Problem: Sword is more expensive than a hand gun.
Solution: Buy a sword and start buying more expensive hand guns so the sword is still cheaper.

Problem: Hand guns are more expensive than a sword.
Solution: Buy more expensive / custom swords so that hand guns are cheaper.

Problem: Run out of space for hand guns and swords.
Solution: Give them to Sir James and start over again.
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #55 on: 2014-03-01, 03:24:37 »
I am sorry to come back to this subject, but I can't seem to find any lambskin or deerskin leather mittens. Also would those be time appropriate? Or is suede? I read something on the forum about using chopper gloves? I am looking for ones that are "authentic" to the time period and are good for combat and sword wielding.
« Last Edit: 2014-03-01, 04:00:22 by Sir Aiden »
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #56 on: 2014-03-01, 16:18:41 »
I am sorry to come back to this subject, but I can't seem to find any lambskin or deerskin leather mittens. Also would those be time appropriate? Or is suede? I read something on the forum about using chopper gloves? I am looking for ones that are "authentic" to the time period and are good for combat and sword wielding.

http://www.amazon.com/Mens-Tan-Deerskin-Chopper-Mittens/dp/B0047VOVAI
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Sir Wolf

  • He Who is Not to be Named
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,389
  • i have too many hats
    • man e faces
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #57 on: 2014-03-01, 17:39:13 »
sexytime

Aiden of Oreland

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
  • Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #58 on: 2014-03-01, 22:48:50 »
sexytime

Took the words right out of my mouth. Just got to cut the palm, then add lacing to lace it shut (which will require assistance from someone to tie). Then remove that elastic part from the rist. Well I think I got an idea of what to do for my kit now :) thank you all for helping me with this I really appreciate it. Now all i have to do is look at kettle helms and bucket helms. I would ask for assistance on my soft kit but I already know what I need so I'll just post pics of it in the making. Again I appreciate all the help :)
-"I raise not the sword, but the shield."-Aiden Max

Don Jorge

  • Learning is living...
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 480
  • He who fears death is already dead...
Re: 13th and 14th c. Kits
« Reply #59 on: 2014-03-10, 14:43:07 »
If anyone doing a early/mid 14th century kit needs a CoP there is a good one made by a Ukrainian on the AA who is selling it really cheap. $190 usd shipped! It is 16g and the guy does really solid neat work...I have read reviews of some other pieces here and there and have exchanged PM's with him. Alas, it doesn't fit me...

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=168159