A Late 14th C Pisan

[Ian]

Is this worn in addition to a gorget and/or aventail?  Looking at Sir Ian's avatar, I don't see how you'd ever notice the pisan under the helm and aventail.

Sir William, the pisan is worn in addition to an aventail and functions as a gorget.  Rigid neck defense wouldn't really be a thing until Agincourt era as it was attached to Great Bascinets in place of an aventail. As a stand-alone piece of rigid armor for the throat it wouldn't really be a thing until much later.  The true 'gorget' that must people think of when they hear the word is a 16th century invention.  There only 'gorget' style armor worn before 1415 is just maille, and then through most of the 15th it was the bevor with a sallet, or the wrapper on an armet, or just a maille standard.

 

it seems a bit redundant if you have an aventail with a padded liner (that goes out beyond the helm itself). I can see how it would help protect against an attack where a simple aventail wouldnt work.

Basically if you have the right type of liner and sewed the end of the aventail to the liner like in the pic above, would you ever use a pisan?

 

Belemrys, my bascinet's aventail has a sewed in padded liner just like the picture you linked.  Yes, you would definitely still want a pisan.  The aventail does not protect from thrusts that originate underneath the level of the aventail hem.  The pisan can be worn under the top of the breastplate.  So you can imagine that if an errant blade were to skip off the top of the breastplate and underneath the aventail, the pisan is still there to hopefully prevent penetration of the throat.  The top of the breastplate acts as a means to pin it down, ensuring that nothing can get to your throat without going through it first.

[Sir James A]

Shamelessly plugging an awesome picture that Sir Ian took of me last year at VARF, but it shows how the mail standard/pisan tucks into the rest of the armor. Mine is tucked into a yoke (gorget with no vertical lames) but the effect when tucked in a breast plate is the same. Note that there is no excess hanging out / flopping, as an aventail has.

[Aiden of Oreland]

I definitely need to get myself one.

[Sir William]

That is an awesome shot, Sir James (nicely done Sir Ian).

[Don Jorge]

it seems a bit redundant if you have an aventail with a padded liner (that goes out beyond the helm itself). I can see how it would help protect against an attack where a simple aventail wouldnt work.

Basically if you have the right type of liner and sewed the end of the aventail to the liner like in the pic above, would you ever use a pisan?

 

Belemrys, my bascinet's aventail has a sewed in padded liner just like the picture you linked.  Yes, you would definitely still want a pisan.  The aventail does not protect from thrusts that originate underneath the level of the aventail hem.  The pisan can be worn under the top of the breastplate.  So you can imagine that if an errant blade were to skip off the top of the breastplate and underneath the aventail, the pisan is still there to hopefully prevent penetration of the throat.  The top of the breastplate acts as a means to pin it down, ensuring that nothing can get to your throat without going through it first.

Makes perfect sense to me! Thanks! I wonder if the SCA would find that to be appropriate replacement over a proper Gorget...probably if the padding was thick enough...how did you tailor the mail? just got squares or do they come premade?

[Ian]

I think the SCA requires a rigid defense.  You could certainly hide a rigid plate inside of maille.

The maille itself required  no tailoring, but it will definitely not fit anyone with a bigger neck.  I lucked out that it fit out of the box, that's rare.

[Sir Rodney]

Is this worn in addition to a gorget and/or aventail?  Looking at Sir Ian's avatar, I don't see how you'd ever notice the pisan under the helm and aventail.

I currently wear a butted mail standard under my bascinet & aventail.  My standard hides a padded heavy leather “dog collar” gorget.

I’ve seen the SCA rules regarding neck armour interpreted many different ways over the years by many different Marshals.  To alleviate any potential problems during armour inspections, I tend to play it safe.

With the combo of bascinet, unpadded mail aventail, mail standard, hidden leather collar, and quilted padding, I’ve never had my armour bounced (plus it looks good    ).

VI. ARMOR REQUIREMENTS
D. Neck Armor
The neck, including the larynx, cervical vertebrae, and first thoracic vertebra must be covered by one or a combination of the following and must stay covered during typical combat situations, including turning the head, lifting the chin, etc.:
1. The helm
2. A gorget of rigid material
3. A mail or heavy leather camail or aventail that hangs or drapes to absorb the force of a blow. If the camail or aventail lays in contact with the larynx, cervical vertebrae, or first thoracic vertebra, that section must be padded with a minimum of .25 inch (6mm) of closed cell foam or equivalent
4. A collar of heavy leather lined with a minimum of .2 5in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent.

[scott2978]

This seems like a fun project so I started making one today using some left over 9mm wedge riveted maille and scraps of linen and leather I had laying around. I'll post pics once I get the maille woven together, just looks like a pile of ring strips right now.

[Lord Dane]

Very nice work Ian. I love the details.

[Sir Rodney]

I made a butted mail standard some time ago and received quite a bit of help and advice from David Teague, Bill Grandy, Sir Wolf and others in this myArmoury thread:

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20262

I just realized that I never posted a picture of the final product.   

[Sir Wolf]

[scott2978]

Sir Wolf, how does yours fasten in the back?

[Sir Wolf]

2 buckles that i sewed onto leather and sewed the straps onto the mail.

[scott2978]

If anyone would like to post a pic of how your fastening looks that would be helpful to us making these. The fastening method seems the trickiest part. I imagine for 14th century under an aventail you wouldn't want buckles, but later you might.

Sirs Iran and James do yours lace or buckle?

Scott

[Ian]

At first it laced, now it buckles, neither made a difference with the helmet / aventail on over it.