"You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing that we call 'failure' is not the falling down, but the staying down."
                -- Mary Pickford

Author Topic: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)  (Read 84359 times)

Don Jorge

  • Learning is living...
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 480
  • He who fears death is already dead...
My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« on: 2013-11-15, 22:24:26 »
These are my Inspirations:


http://effigiesandbrasses.com/821/1127/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/622/816/


Not sure if these Facebook pictures will post if you aren't friends with Keith:





I have been in contact with Mad Matt and got a quote to build a set around the german effigy that looks like the stuff Keith has in his kit. A few considerations I needed help with are:

1. The helmet...should it be a great helm, sugar loaf or bascinet for a 1351-1364 era kit.
2. Should I go with all splinted leather on every piece like the german effigy or go with Stapleton's kit that is more English and thus more up to date with the plate arms and splinted cuisses and greaves. I was told from a saftey point of view I should stay away from splinted arms...any input on that?
3. Leather or fabric CoP? or does it not matter because eventually I will get a surcoat?
4. How historical would it be NOT to wear maile underneath everything? Keith said it can be done and in SCA no one will bust my chops...it would be nice to have some reprieve on expenses as far as armor goes for a little while...if I showed up to DoK this next year would I not be allowed to not dress up if I didnt have chain under the kit?
5. I have read extensively about voiders for transitional sets and there is no proof AGAINST them, as many transitional kits are based off effigies (there is very little existing armor out there I am told) and voiders and aventail and skirt would trick an effigie into looking like a haubergeon. I ask because...
6. Gambesons...I seriously contemplating the revival.us gambeson and I am told that it might not work so good with riveted mail haubergeon with the cloth buttons and it being so thin. The kit Matt has quoted me is about $1300 shipped for a Helm with a peferrated sheet under the eyes for HEMA/WMA, shoulders, rerebraces, elbows, vambraces, cuisses, knee cops (fluted like the german effigy), and greaves...all of it splinted. That plus the gambeson and some period shows put me at like $1500...The wife is not going to go for that easily and putting 250-350 on a gambeson and 500 more on riveted wedged flat mail....it isn't going to happen. So I was thinking paying the 100 bucks for the revival.us gambeson and transition it into HEMA once I have had time to save up and get the gambeson and mail.

Any ideas or suggestions on what I should do with the kit?

Thanks,
Jorge

P.S. Thinking about black CoP, red gambeson and maybe a red belt...red and black is overused but hey, it looks spiffy and hides the blood ;)
« Last Edit: 2013-11-15, 23:20:38 by Belemrys »

Sir Nate

  • Nathan
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • **
  • Posts: 1,702
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #1 on: 2013-11-15, 22:56:48 »
Wow! Great kit
Nathan Phillip Max
Knight of the Order
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil"

Lord Dane

  • The Hound, Hunter, and Hammer of Justice
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,900
  • Selflessness, Service, Justice.
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #2 on: 2013-11-15, 23:05:06 »
Agreed. Nice kit!!
"Fides, Honos, Prudentia, Sapiencia" (Faith, Honor, Prudence, Wisdom)
"Fiat justitia ruat caelum" (Let justice be done)

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #3 on: 2013-11-15, 23:21:51 »

1. The helmet...should it be a great helm, sugar loaf or bascinet for a 1351-1364 era kit.
2. Should I go with all splinted leather on every piece like the german effigy or go with Stapleton's kit that is more English and thus more up to date with the plate arms and splinted cuisses and greaves. I was told from a saftey point of view I should stay away from splinted arms...any input on that?
3. Leather or fabric CoP? or does it not matter because eventually I will get a surcoat?
4. How historical would it be NOT to wear maile underneath everything? Keith said it can be done and in SCA no one will bust my chops...it would be nice to have some reprieve on expenses as far as armor goes for a little while...if I showed up to DoK this next year would I not be allowed to not dress up if I didnt have chain under the kit?
5. I have read extensively about voiders for transitional sets and there is no proof AGAINST them, as many transitional kits are based off effigies (there is very little existing armor out there I am told) and voiders and aventail and skirt would trick an effigie into looking like a haubergeon. I ask because...
6. Gambesons...I seriously contemplating the revival.us gambeson and I am told that it might not work so good with riveted mail haubergeon with the cloth buttons and it being so thin. The kit Matt has quoted me is about $1300 shipped for a Helm with a peferrated sheet under the eyes for HEMA/WMA, shoulders, rerebraces, elbows, vambraces, cuisses, knee cops (fluted like the german effigy), and greaves...all of it splinted. That plus the gambeson and some period shows put me at like $1500...The wife is not going to go for that easily and putting 250-350 on a gambeson and 500 more on riveted wedged flat mail....it isn't going to happen. So I was thinking paying the 100 bucks for the revival.us gambeson and transition it into HEMA once I have had time to save up and get the gambeson and mail.


1.  A sugarloaf is a little outdated for your chosen time period.  A great helm or bascinet would be appropriate.  If you want to go German, thean a shovel-face klappvisor bascinet would be ideal, or if you dig the great helm you can still get away with it for this period (but know it's really more for mounted combat, not foot combat, historically the great helm would have been worn over a bascinet and then discarded or removed after the charge and the fighting moved to foot).

2.  If you like the German persona I would stay with the splinted.  I've never heard of splint having safety issues, and tons of SCAdians use it.

3.  Leather is more durable, but almost all surviving COPs and Brigs etc are fabric covered, not leather covered, but they wouldn't have minded replacing fabric frequently.

4.  If you want the historical answer, a knight would be wearing a full maille haubergeon under their plate or splint at this time almost without exception by contemporary art and effigies.  It will add considerable weight to your harness (it's the single heaviest piece of kit in my full plate harness).  But you're right, the SCA will not bust your chops if you choose to go without it.

5.  Currently there is virtually no concrete evidence for voiders/skirts until the 15th century when plate harnesses provided enough coverage making the full haubergeon redundant.  Remember, proving a negative is not logically possible, so saying there's no proof something didn't exist is meaningless in historical context, but again, the SCA is not going to bust your chops if you want to 'look' like you're wearing a haubergeon.

6.  I have no experience with the revival.us gamby, but the revivalclothing.com gamby is of similar design and it is specifically designed to be worn under maille (I have the linen version and wore it under maille for years until I made my Charles de Blois pourpoint) with normal wear and tear. You don't need a lot of padding with a maille haubergeon that's only supplementing a CoP / splint limbs or plate harness.  Heavier padded gambesons are more important for harnesses that are primarily maille.
« Last Edit: 2013-11-15, 23:24:45 by Ian »
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #4 on: 2013-11-15, 23:39:52 »
Just my opinions, of course. The ones I didn't respond to, I don't have an answer or suggestion.

2. Should I go with all splinted leather on every piece like the german effigy or go with Stapleton's kit that is more English and thus more up to date with the plate arms and splinted cuisses and greaves. I was told from a saftey point of view I should stay away from splinted arms...any input on that?

From a safety perspective, somebody hitting you hard enough to leave bruises or break bones through splinted or plate is hitting too hard. If you're doing steel combat, even rebated edges will "chew" at the leather if they strike it without grounding out on the steel splints, but it's not going to fail overnight or in a single bout, it would take many years.

3. Leather or fabric CoP? or does it not matter because eventually I will get a surcoat?

Leather will be more expensive; if it's getting covered and you aren't doing living history, doesn't really matter.

4. How historical would it be NOT to wear maile underneath everything? Keith said it can be done and in SCA no one will bust my chops...it would be nice to have some reprieve on expenses as far as armor goes for a little while...if I showed up to DoK this next year would I not be allowed to not dress up if I didnt have chain under the kit?

When you're talking about fighting in plastic armor (SCA) and fighting with imaginary armor that doesn't even reflect what you're wearing, anybody busting your chops over lack of a haubergeon can probably be ignored. As far as Days of Knights, I don't think it would be an issue to not have the mail. If you can find effigies or sources that show it existed without the mail - perfect. If you can't, make sure when people ask about the armor or if you give any impromptu presentations that you mention mail would be worn with the armor. Many people are in-between states of completion with their kits, and as long as you don't try to pass it off as complete and accurate when it isn't, it isn't a terrible offense. The primary goal for DoK is to keep out fairies, dragons, dwarves, sci fi, etc.

5. I have read extensively about voiders for transitional sets and there is no proof AGAINST them, as many transitional kits are based off effigies (there is very little existing armor out there I am told) and voiders and aventail and skirt would trick an effigie into looking like a haubergeon. I ask because...

It's a very loaded topic. Even some accounts of voiders in later period harness aren't always constant. There is artwork showing that late period italian armor, when it was "full plate", had a double-layer fauld; some speculation on it actually being a fauld with a haubergeon worn over it. Some of the later period italian armor actually wears the sleeves of the haubergeon over top of the upper arm harness, which means it cannot be voiders. The best we can do is make an educated guess at what's hidden from us in pictures, by trying to extrapolate from other sources. So I would say, buy whichever, as there's no hard evidence one way or the other.

6. Gambesons...I seriously contemplating the revival.us gambeson and I am told that it might not work so good with riveted mail haubergeon with the cloth buttons and it being so thin. The kit Matt has quoted me is about $1300 shipped for a Helm with a peferrated sheet under the eyes for HEMA/WMA, shoulders, rerebraces, elbows, vambraces, cuisses, knee cops (fluted like the german effigy), and greaves...all of it splinted. That plus the gambeson and some period shows put me at like $1500...The wife is not going to go for that easily and putting 250-350 on a gambeson and 500 more on riveted wedged flat mail....it isn't going to happen. So I was thinking paying the 100 bucks for the revival.us gambeson and transition it into HEMA once I have had time to save up and get the gambeson and mail.

The mail can catch on the buttons a bit but once you have it on, it should be of minimal issue. I've had my haubergeon on over cloth button gambeson and aside from actively getting into it, didn't have any other trouble. I haven't worn it for 10 hours, only around the house, but it's a minor concern. You can always take the cloth buttons off and do a spiral lace conversion - it's just cutting off the buttons and sewing holes. The most important aspect of a gambeson should be in the arms/fitment, rather than how it stays closed.

You can always start with a cheaper gambeson and upgrade later. They are somewhat of a "wear and tear" item, you probably won't have it forever.

You can also pick up the mail down the road. No need to buy everything all at once. Most people don't. Have it on the radar as a planned kit upgrade, but start with the basics and work from there.
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #5 on: 2013-11-15, 23:51:59 »
The primary goal for DoK is to keep out fairies, dragons, dwarves, sci fi, etc.

For the sake of full disclosure, this isn't exactly true.  While it is of course a goal of DoK to keep out the fantasy stuff, the standards are a lot higher than the implication in that sentence.  But to answer your question, you could certainly forego a maille haubergeon at something like DoK, but it should certainly be explained that normally one would be worn and you are omitting it.  Here are the published standards for DoK (these are probably more stringent than the reality of the event though) http://daysofknightsfrankfort.com/html/standards.html

The truth of the matter is that SCA kits will generally not pass muster at a Living History event because of the compromises made to the kits for the sport's safety regulations, and a lot of living history kits will conversely not pass muster for the SCA because they're either missing safety requirements or are made from steel that is too light of a gauge etc.
« Last Edit: 2013-11-16, 00:24:52 by Ian »
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Sir Edward

  • Forum Admin
  • Commander of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,340
  • Verum et Honorem.
    • ed.toton.org
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #6 on: 2013-11-16, 17:33:34 »
The primary goal for DoK is to keep out fairies, dragons, dwarves, sci fi, etc.

For the sake of full disclosure, this isn't exactly true.  While it is of course a goal of DoK to keep out the fantasy stuff, the standards are a lot higher than the implication in that sentence.

Probably a better way to state it is that was one of the original goals, and the standards have been creeping up ever since. :)
Sir Ed T. Toton III
Knight Commander, Order of the Marshal

( Personal Site | My Facebook )

Don Jorge

  • Learning is living...
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 480
  • He who fears death is already dead...
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #7 on: 2013-11-18, 18:23:03 »
Thank you so much for all the responses! So Matt and I were speaking last night about the helmet and as a general consensus we decided on a bascinet and he suggested a shovel visor for the time period I am looking at...I love the look on it and while more expensive than the great helm, I think it might be worth it...



Also I was thinking about articulated arms vs riveted arms...it saves me 40 bucks...the other option was for shoulder armor like the one in my first pic, a simple teardrop or spade spaulder instead of like in Stapleton's effigy the 3 plate spaulders. The spade spaulder like in would save me 50 bucks and would work better with the full splinted leather set.

Any opinions on this bascinet with the shovel visor vs great helm and splinted leather arms w/simple spade spaulder vs plate arms with 3 plate spaulders?

Thanks,
Jorge

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #8 on: 2013-11-18, 18:46:27 »
The very narrow shovel face like the one you linked is from what I know specifically an Italian style.  I think it's a pretty cool looking helmet.  The Germanic shovel face is more like this:

(sca,bascinet)

It's just a wider visor, but similar style.  Either helmet is appropriate for the time period, they just vary in locale is all.  Personally, I think a bascinet is a more practical helmet than a great helm.  You can pop the visor off and see and breathe, which is nice, and it's more closely fitted. :)

I see nothing wrong with doing a simple spaulder for the shoulder to pair with a splinted arm harness.  That kit in the photo you linked is a very nice kit, if you can duplicate a similar style I think you'll be very happy with the results.  FWIW, I don't see any historical problems with that kit.
« Last Edit: 2013-11-18, 18:58:04 by Sir Edward »
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Thorsteinn

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,470
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #9 on: 2013-11-18, 18:47:33 »
Clang Armoury's got some great stuff too, and I would definitely hit up the Armour Archive because the CotT is a huge thing over there so lots of good folks to help there.

-SCA fighter for 13 years.
Cynaguan Guardsman.
Fall down seven, get up eight.

Sir James A

  • Weapons & Armor addict
  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,043
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #10 on: 2013-11-18, 23:55:32 »
The primary goal for DoK is to keep out fairies, dragons, dwarves, sci fi, etc.

For the sake of full disclosure, this isn't exactly true.  While it is of course a goal of DoK to keep out the fantasy stuff, the standards are a lot higher than the implication in that sentence.

Probably a better way to state it is that was one of the original goals, and the standards have been creeping up ever since. :)

Agreed, I didn't summarize it very well. There is still a plethora of things completely "wrong" from a pure historical replica perspective; no bloomery iron swords, butted mail, stainless armor, machine sewn garments, etc. I have that kind of thing in my head but it doesn't always make it out to the keyboard. :)

Sir Ian certainly raised the bar and set it phenomenally high at the first Days of Knights. There were very few representations of his caliber. It seems DoK2013 was even more impressive, and I can't wait to see who/what 2014 has in the lineup. I haven't heard that the standards have changed, but the quality of the portrayals has certainly creeped up higher and looks to go even further still. And that makes me want to go even more!

As far as the kit recommendations and single vs articulated; I know it's going to sound strange, but don't think of it as much from a financial perspective. Yes, you can save $40 by going with single shoulder vs articulated. However, what do you WANT? If it means your kit costs $2,800 instead of $2,200 to get what you want vs what is cheaper, go for the $2,800 - but give yourself more time to budget for it and assemble it. If you're replicating a specific kit style, don't deviate from it unless you have a non-monetary reason to (personal preference or historical precedence). Or pick up a second job, overtime, sell some unneeded internal organs - whatever options you can pursue.

If you buy it the cheap way at $2,200 and find you aren't happy with parts of it, and then throw pieces in a box and/or buy replacements to something you want instead of what was cheapest, you're not saving much (or any) money. Plus, going slow with it, there is also potential something you want/need for the kit will come up for sale either used or through a vendor sale - and that saves you some money.

There's no deadline on getting a kit finished by a specific date; or is there? :)
Knight, Order of the Marshal
Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #11 on: 2013-11-19, 00:00:40 »
If you buy it the cheap way at $2,200 and find you aren't happy with parts of it, and then throw pieces in a box and/or buy replacements to something you want instead of what was cheapest, you're not saving much (or any) money. Plus, going slow with it, there is also potential something you want/need for the kit will come up for sale either used or through a vendor sale - and that saves you some money.

There's no deadline on getting a kit finished by a specific date; or is there? :)

Not only this, but you will end up buying your kit OVER again until you are happy.  Trust us, we've all been guilty of this.  Had we just bought what we really wanted and committed the time and money the first time, it would have saved us money in the end, because eventually you WILL get what you want.  It just depends on whether or not you buy it first, or after a long series of mistakes.

My kit is not complete yet, it's still missing some very important parts, and since I went down the path of getting what I really want it's been 3 years in the making due to research and budget.  These things take time.

Sir James is also inflating my kit a little bit, and I appreciate his compliments :) , it may be nice, but compared to other impressions at DoK I would say it fits in just fine, but hardly sets the bar higher than the other offerings.  Especially after this year! 
« Last Edit: 2013-11-19, 00:02:48 by Ian »
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

Sir Ulrich

  • Squire of the Order
  • Forum Acolyte
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,177
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #12 on: 2013-11-19, 00:53:11 »
I can talk from experience to what Sir Ian is saying, if I had known what I knew now I wouldn't of bought most parts of my older kits. I ended up buying a new custom gambeson wasting money on old premade ones I am never gonna use anymore, I sold my old maille because I wasnt satisfied with it, I ended up rebuying a new sword anyway due to me wanting the top quality goods. I would say the safest route you could take would be to do partially what I did and go for a common footsoldier first then "build it up" from there. Thats what I did then I jumped straight into living history. SCA wise I am not to familiar with though. Get what you really want instead of taking the cheaper route. Believe me it's much more worth to get what you really want and be happy than buy it all over again.

Don Jorge

  • Learning is living...
  • Yeoman of the Order
  • Forum Follower
  • **
  • Posts: 480
  • He who fears death is already dead...
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #13 on: 2013-11-20, 15:36:25 »
If it weren't for all this armor and gambesons purchases in my future and the need for a feder and fencing mask for HEMA I would totally be bidding on this right now....


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Albion-Steward-Next-Generation-Line-Sword-/181264113721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a342ee039

For all you 14th century people who need a good war sword :)

Ian

  • Knight of the Order
  • Forum Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,994
Re: My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)
« Reply #14 on: 2013-11-20, 16:07:35 »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Albion-Steward-Next-Generation-Line-Sword-/181264113721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a342ee039

For all you 14th century people who need a good war sword :)

That same dude is also selling an Albion Regent and Albion Knight!
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest

Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum