My Kit...14th Century for CotT (SCA Legal)

[Sir Edward]

If it weren't for all this armor and gambesons purchases in my future and the need for a feder and fencing mask for HEMA I would totally be bidding on this right now....


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Albion-Steward-Next-Generation-Line-Sword-/181264113721?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a342ee039

For all you 14th century people who need a good war sword

The current bid is also quite low for this sword.

[Don Jorge]

aye I am sure it will rise...alas no money for that...armor first!

[Ian]

Belemrys,

Towards the bottom of this thread, Maxim of WildArmoury has a cool set of splinted arms and legs for sale done in tempered spring steel for a very good price.  Might be worth looking at:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=166593

[Sir Wolf]

i love that look, but the knees and elbows are way over sized i think. i know its for sca purposes and it has to be that way but man i wish they were moer historical lol

[Thorsteinn]

This is the Badass pics thread from the Armour Archive:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73637

[Don Jorge]

Yeah Ian, I asked for measurements already...i think they might be too small to fit over tunics and gambeson and maile

Subject: WildArmoury sale. New item

Belemrys wrote:
MattMG wrote:
M.Suprovich wrote:
New stuff for sale!

Set of splinted arms and legs. 1,2mm tempered spring steel. Good fit on a man 180-200cm tall.
Price 400$ include shipping


Hello, I like these but I am picky about my fit, could I have some info? In CM is fine.

Length over biceps (armpit to inside elbow)
Length of forearm

Length over front of tibia

Length of cuisse from knee to inside
Length of cuisse from knee to outside


What he said! I am 196 cm tall but am quite thick


Hello.

There are measurements for splinted arms and legs:
Upper leg bigger circumference ~60-65cm
Upper leg smaller circumference ~45cm
Length of upper leg ~42cm

Lower leg bigger circumference ~42-48cm
Lower leg smaller circumference ~30-35cm
Length of lower leg ~35-37cm

Upper arm bigger circumference ~ 45-50cm
Length of upper arm ~24-26cm
Lower arm bigger circumference ~ 35-40cm
Lower arm smaller circumference ~ 25-28cm
Length of lower arm ~22-24cm

If you have any questions, ask me free.

Best regards
Maxim Suprovich
WildArmoury



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sir James A]

Maxim is a good guy and does good work. The fitment should be specifically over gambeson only. For the arms, you might have a small bit of the sleeves in the upper arm, but the elbows/lower should not be covering any mail, the mail shirt will end around your bicep area or before the elbow. I *believe*, but ask Maxim to confirm, the upper arm is "open" style, in that it isn't an enclosed "tube", and straps closed, so it will have some play in how it fits over the haubergeon. It doesn't have to close completely. I can't remember if my splint upper arms even do or don't.

And $400 for tempered spring steel is a REALLY good deal for full set of arms and legs. I think I paid more than that just for stainless (which is NOT tempered and is heavier).

[Don Jorge]

I will check my measurements later (wife just got out if surgery) but pretty sure my thunder thighs will make it impossible. Last night at sca fighter practice no ones legs fit me :-/


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[Don Jorge]

So unfortunately those legs and arms are sold already :/

How do you guys feel about spring stainless from a historical point of view. Sir Ian said on facebook that spring stainless is closer to what was around back in the 14th century than say mild steel (I am assuming because of the tempering process?). Should I just take longer and get my kit made in Spring Steel?

[Ian]

So unfortunately those legs and arms are sold already :/

How do you guys feel about spring stainless from a historical point of view. Sir Ian said on facebook that spring stainless is closer to what was around back in the 14th century than say mild steel (I am assuming because of the tempering process?). Should I just take longer and get my kit made in Spring Steel?

No no.... I said Spring Steel is closer to what they had historically... not spring stainless.  Introducing chromium to steel to make it 'stainless' is in no way historic.  Mild steel is also not close to historic steel. 

Spring steel and spring stainless are not the same thing.  I can't ever advocate any type of stainless steel for historical use.  It's purely for convenience for the corrosion resistance.

Spring steel on the other hand can be hardened and tempered like the hardening processes used in good historic armor and best replicates what they were wearing.  Modern cold rolled mild steel is by definition unable to be hardened and tempered like spring steel.  It has to be made too thick and heavy to replicate the strength in properly heat treated spring steel.

But don't take it from me!  Take it from Jeffrey Hedgecock, one of the world's finest armorer's:

Over my 25 year career so far, I have worked in all three materials; mild, spring and stainless, though of the pieces I've made, the fewest have been in stainless.

Where historical accuracy is concerned, although all three are modern alloys, only 1050 spring steel approximates better quality historical steels. Stainless is the least accurate because of one simple fact- it doesn't rust. There were no non-rusting steels historically.

Metallographic steel analysis and study by Alan Williams and Anthony deReuck suggests that 1050 spring steel is the closest modern equivalent to historical steel of above-average quality. That is, steel the best armours were made from.

In order of durability, low to high, that is "ability to resist impact" and return to original form, it goes mild steel, stainless, then spring steel of at least 40 points of carbon (when properly heat treated). Most armourers who know how to make historically correct armour (both in form and function) -don't- work in stainless, for a variety of reasons. I personally only work in spring steel now because with the amount of work I put into my pieces, I want them to last a good long time, and the best way to ensure that is to make them of 1050 spring and heat treat them well. I find mild too soft, even if work-hardened, and stainless is just plain too hard on the tools and my body, and doesn't yield a result I'm happy with, in color and overall "look". My experience has also suggested that generally speaking, the people who want stainless armour really aren't interested in properly maintaining their armour (hence the stainless), and I believe that for armour to function properly over time it should be regularly maintained and attended to. The people I have met that like stainless armour prefer avoiding all maintenance and repair whatsoever. For me, there's no such thing as "maintenance-free" armour.

I personally believe typical stainless steels (that doesn't include "spring stainless") will never approach the toughness and durability of spring steels like 1050. Typical stainless alloys just can't be heat treated like 1050 can, so will never be as tough. In my opinion, if you want armour that will handle hard use and last a long time, there is no better steel than 1050.
Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock
Historic Enterprises, Inc.
WorldJoust Tournaments™

That's from this thread on MyArmoury.com

[Don Jorge]

Ah sorry, I didnt know spring stainless and spring steel were two different things. Is Spring Steel the same as Heat treated mild steel instead of CR mild?

[Sir Edward]

Yep, I've only gone with stainless so far on my newest sets of gaunts, and my fencing helms. Basically the items that I know are going to sit in sweaty gear bags. Going forward I really want to go with spring steel, for the reasons cited by Mr. Hedgecock.

[Ian]

Ah sorry, I didnt know spring stainless and spring steel were two different things. Is Spring Steel the same as Heat treated mild steel instead of CR mild?

Any still with the addition of chromium is a stainless steel.  Steer clear if you're going for historic.

Mild steel cannot be heat treated because it's carbon content is too low.  Mild steel is a very soft variety of steel.  There is no such thing as heat treated or hardened mild steel.  You can work harden mild steel, which means that it gets a little harder by beating the crap out of it with a hammer, but it's still bendable.

Medium and high carbon steels can be heat treated.  1050 spring steel is off this variety.  When a steel is heat treated, it's first heated to a high temperature and then quenched in oil or water to cool it rapidly.  This realigns the structure of the steel and makes it very hard.  The problem is that things that are very hard are usually brittle.  Like glass, which is very hard, but shatters, so too will steel that has been quenched and left to be.  If you hit steel in this state it will literally crack and/or shatter.

This is where tempering comes in.  After steel has been hardened, it is then re-heated to a temperature not quite as high as the hardening temperature, and then allowed to cool very slowly.  This softens the steel a little bit, relaxing some of the realignment caused by the hardening.  This leaves the steel in a state that is both hard, but flexible.  Spring steel is called 'spring' because when it flexes, it springs back to it's shape without bending.  Mild steel on the other hand bends and stays that way.  So, an armorer will shape spring steel to it's final shape, then harden, then temper.  Then it will hold it's shape basically forever.

Properly formed spring steel that was finished by a capable armorer is also much more naturally corrosion resistant than mild steel.  But like Jeff Hedgecock said, no armor (even stainless) is maintenance free.

TLDR:  If you can pay for it, heat treated spring steel is worth the investment and the armorer's skill who can work with it.

[Sir James A]

Sir Ian has covered the steels very well. I'll add a small summary here, since there are, roughly, 4 types of steel for armor. Heat treating refers specifically to "hardening" the steel. It can also be referred to as "case hardening". It is completely different from when you see someone heat up a piece of steel and start hitting it over the anvil or forms - in that case, they are heating it to soften the metal to a more workable state. Heat treating involves quenching, and makes the steel harder; the key is in slow cooling or fast cooling and how the steel reacts to it.

Mild Steel: $
Mild steel cannot be heat treated. It is the most affordable, easiest to work with, and most common kind to find on the market. Some european armorers may refer to it as "sheet iron" or "plate iron". Hot rolled and cold rolled refers to how it is processed into a sheet. Cold Rolled steel is preferential for armor since it is a harder steel than Hot Rolled of equal thickness; the heating softens the steel by some kind of chemical molecular wizardry stuff, and the armor made from it is softer because of that.

Stainless Steel: $$
Stainless steel cannot be heat treated - but - often needs to be heated during shaping since it "work hardens", in that shaping it makes the piece harden up a bit. This can lead to cracks if it isn't heated to re-soften it to a workable state. The primary differences are stainless steel in the same thickness is harder than mild steel, and is highly rust resistant.

Spring Steel: $$$$
Spring steel can be heat treated. It is from the addition of carbon in the steel. Sometimes called "high carbon steel" instead of "spring steel" too. As Sir Ian said, it's the closest thing to medieval steel you'll find within any normal person's price range.

Spring Stainless: $$$$$$$$
This is a relatively new steel on the market for armor. It's very expensive, very few people work with it, but it's the best steel you can get short of titanium-infused adamantium. It has the light weight of historical steel through it's capability to be used thinner than mild steel and still heat treated, and it is also highly rust resistant too. It's primary drawback is needing to take a home equity loan or sell internal organs to afford it.

[Don Jorge]

I think I have a spare kidney...it is amazing to see how prices vary from armorer to armorer.

The Surly Anvil (John Gruber) quoted me for a Bascinet and shovel visor, splinted arms, legs, greaves and shoulders and a COP (for some reason made of Spring instead of simple mild which really is all that is needed) about 6k and if I wanted fingered spring steel gauntlets 1500 more...

Mad Matt about 2k. Although maybe that didn't include the bascinet made of Spring Steel...but I cant see why that would raise the price that much more (It had a great helm in the quote instead of the bascinet and visor).

Anyone know a good place to get splinted spring steel armor?

Thanks,
Jorge