The 14th Century Surcote, Cotton-Velvet or Wool? (And where goes the heraldry?)

[Henrik Granlid]

Allright, so, long story short, there is a man out there who's name I do not know, I have simply forgotten it. I have a few points of inspiration for my kit, but this man has got to have one of the nicest infantry-kits out there.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/22hlhrygxvfwy7x/2967544577_657c84272e_z.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e75dl3n8ux1a8ww/2968389618_1617c07dc9_z.jpg?dl=0

And now I've found myself styling my first version of my 14th century kit after him, it's mostly coincidence, since I'm looking for a lot of things and looks and whatnots, however, he just happened to embody what I'm already striving for. As such, I'm going to make his kit the basis of my own, i.e. German 1340's through 50's (There will be a breastplate/globular defenses for later periods when there is more money, don't you worry metalheads).

Most things are solved or on their way to being solved, however, I'm curious as to what material to use on a surcote such as his (you may note it's pretty much straight from the Romance of Alexander). But what on earth do I use as materials?

The man on the picture, I remember, stated that he used cotton velvet for his surcoat, and sure it does look good, however, I'm not entirely certain it's for me. Silk velvet at 140 usd a meter is certainly NOT for me though, and as such I've found myself choosing between making the surcote either in cotton velvet, or in wool cloth, what are people's advice on this? I guess I'm just afraid of having a look of "masquerade" when on the field despite putting much effort into getting the armour itself to look good, period and coherent.

Secondly, how do I deal with my heraldry and colours? I've found myself in a bit of a situation here. Namely, I have a red chevron on a white field as the basis, making the surcote a bit of a trouble to properly get down. Are there any suggestions as to how to properly model it or divide it?

Do I go with one of the basic colours and bite the embroidery bullet with a big piece in the middle of it? Or do I just do a regular split field? Note that I cannot simply place a chevron across it and be done with it since the chevron covers the entirety of the shield below it's split of the field. I could go with a white "top" with a chevron-split into a red bottom though.

Any ideas? What material do I best use?

[Lord Dane]

Keep in mind any kind of velvet in this fashion mixed with any other material will be good for little but embroidery. And yes, it is very expensive material by itself. I have a complete surcoat & outfit made from it in 2008. It was not cheap than and it will not be now. I would go with a more durable material such as the cotton, linen, or wool especially worn over maille as it will catch. If you use silk or velvet, make sure it is lined on the inside. It is ruined once it is torn. Cannot patch it or repair it. Not to mention you do not want a material that expensive on anything that will be oiled or coated.

Silk or velvet is a noble material and very rich look for an expensive taste. Crushed velvet is a common dress material of the period for non-combat outfits of those who could afford it. 

Center-place your heraldry on any surcoat unless you are just doing field colors without any elaborate design work.
 

[scott2978]

Are you looking to do living history, or SCA fighting, or something else?

The use of linen inner layer and silk or velvet outer layer for both martial and civil surcoats of wealthy people is normal for this period, but if you're portraying anyone beneath nobility your surcoat was probably wool or linen. However, the cyclas style cut of this surcoat is decidedly 1340's English, not German. In fact despite the klapvisor bascinet which everyone associates with the germans, I think this guy is actually portraying an english knight, not a german one. I understand not everyone is interested in a historical critique of their sources though so please excuse me if I'm making unwanted observations.

Edit:
By the way, I'd love to know where he got that very nice poleaxe!

[Henrik Granlid]

Oh don't worry about historical critique, I'm all for it! And that would explain why I had not seen the design on german effigies.

As for cost, velvet can be based on several materials, synthetic velvet being cheap as dirt, cotton velvet being about as expensive as good wool, and silk velvet being more expensive than even historically patterned silk weaves. (Hell, if I'm feeling spendy-as-f**k, I might get a tournament surcote in said historical weave).

I'm going to have to do some browsing around to look at English fashion as well now, ca 1340-1350. I've just bappened to land in Germany but looking at England is a definitive possibility.

And all in all, the kit is for sca, however, I'm a very firm believer of doing it as correctly as possible, simply because it looks nicer.

[Ian]

Henrik,

This is a good read on martial surcottes of the 14th century (http://cottesimple.com/articles/martial-surcottes/).  It's restricted to England and France in scope but is still good information.  What Scott said is correct, the 'Cyclas' style surcotte with a long back and short front is peculiar to England.  Later in the period you'll notice trends like no sleeves in England, while the French sometimes wore short sleeves on their cotes.

You don't need to embroider the chevron on.  You could simply applique the chevron to the cote which is a lot easier and still period.  If you're going to go with wool (which I recommend unless you want to pay big $$$ for the silk), just applique a separate red wool chevron to the base cote.  You could line the whole thing in a medium weight linen and have a nice durable surcotte.

[scott2978]

As for the armor, here's a few helpful resources:

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/search/

http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm

http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/effigy%20analysis.html

[Henrik Granlid]

After a stout observation from Ian and some digging from me, it would appear that my kit-in-progress, is decidedly English, both pertaining to what I want the final thing to look like, and also in the "To get there" items I am planning on getting.

A breakdown of the first level of my kit would be:

Helmet (please ignore the rest, it's either the wrong size, clunky or anachronistic safety measures)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lja0nody24p2aio/2014-08-22%2014.02.08.jpg?dl=0

Center hinged/klappvizier bascinet with a globular visor. 1360 england
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4884/14183/

There are effigies shown with english knights with globular visors earlier as well, however, these are side-hinged rather than from a center, but I'm still counting both the earlier shapes and this very specific helmet as wins when it comes to being pleased with my helmet for this kit.


Shoulder defenses: Incoming shouldercops as the ones pictured in the original post. Now, these are German in style rather than English, and they will eventually be swapped out, but I prefer them over non-intergrated spaulders. (Quick edit: I might keep the cops http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Hereford%20Cathedral%20Peter%20de%20Grandisson%201358%20516.JPG )

Chest defense: Making a coat of plate in the coming week, either a more fitted one in this style: http://i.imgur.com/yC2azwL.jpg, or something easier such as this http://i.imgur.com/gj9NUpw.jpg (or another visby or küssnacht style). This is, however, to be worn under a surcotte as soon as possible.


Arm defenses: Full floating: Forearm splints, pointy elbow with rondel, rearbrace (if any) in same colour leather as splints, only studded for now. This will later be upgraded to a full on articulated arm with historical shapes (tuliping I believe?), but for now, the pointed, splinted construction is quicker and easier and still doable historically.

Leg defenses: Gamboised Quises, floating kneecops.


Big acquisitions:

Grettir Gauntlets (because owie)

Cased Greaves (likely Eastern Block Armour for spring steel at a good price)

Albert Collins (www.viaarmorari.com) breastplate (long way down the line)


Semi sized acquisitions (i.e. every now and then):

Fully articulated arm and spaulders (not sure if armcannons or not)

Chainmail Hauberk from custom chainmail. Likely blackened, flattened riveted to go with the aventail and play off of the increase in white plate harness.

Breastplate or coat of plate from local armourer and great guy

Possibly experimental cased greaves from Man on Anvil in stainless steel.

A better gambesson, possibly a CDB-patterned pourpoint, if I can get that bloody toile to work, so far I'm having a really rough time with it. Otherwise it'll just be a more normal looking one, less buttons and frills and historical shapes though.

Splinted cuises.

Surcote with linnen base and historical silk-weave shell.

Finally:
And that should detail the currently planned journey of my kit. At some point, I'm gonna have to start to plan for a new helmet, but not for quite a while it seems.

[scott2978]

The kalpvisor bascinet was indeed used by the English for a time, before the houndskull visor came to prominence. I have even seen some houndskull bascinets that used to be klapvisors (the Wallace Collection A69 helm being probably the most famous example).

Your long term goals for arms and legs seem good to me. For the pourpoint, I highly recommend the experience of buying this pattern and assembling it yourself:

http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/tasha-kelly/the-pourpoint-of-charles-de-blois/paperback/product-15326605.html

Ian has made one a while back and I'm currently in the middle of making one using this pattern (which reminds me I need to post some pics...)

For the cased greaves, do yourself a big favor and use a vendor that makes them from a cast of your leg. They will cost more, but the agony they will save you is incalculable. ESPECIALLY if your end goal is full floating legs! Walk about 500 feet in greaves that ride on your foot or chafe your ankles and you'll never want to put them on again. I'll be surprised if after wearing the floating legs a few times you don't start thinking about fully articulated legs. And then... slowly... inevitably... you're being pulllllled into the 1390's, where all the BEST armor lives! 

[Henrik Granlid]

Oh Eastern Ironworks does work off of casts, furthermore, at least three of his greaves have gone to the imcf and back, you can really move in those.

I'm also rather tempted to try out Man on Anvil for a pair since he builds them off of casts for very, very little, it would be worth the 220 usd to have them (140 for greaves, 78 for shipping to Sweden), and if they don't sit well enough, I can always take the hinges off and rivet straps on to turn them into schybalds.

And well, we'll see about the floatation legs

[Sir James A]

That's an utterly ridiculous price for cased greaves! Mine were done in mild steel based of measurements alone and were about $550 including shipping to the US. Do you have a link for his site?

And yes, you can convert cased greaves to scyhnbalds. I did it once before. Only thing I wasn't happy with is the extra hole from 4-hole hinges instead of two hole hinges, but if you ask for (or the standard is) two-hole hinges, as in one per side, it's trivial to remove them and replace them with straps.

[Henrik Granlid]

Man on Anvil on facebook, he does not keep his website updated, nor can I remember the name of said website. He works straight out of India and does a lot of custom work.

However, I do not know how his greaves ride, they could be amazing, or they could be absolute and utter tripe, but it still lands on an okay price for custom schynbalds if everything fails =)