Want to start an armor kit

[LadyRiona]

So, I think this is the right place to post just an inquiry...if not, sorry!  I'm looking to start an armor kit at some point, hopefully in the near future.  Any suggestions on sites, people to inquire after, etc?

And if it makes any difference in breastplate shape, I am a female, so armor that works for either sex?

Thanks!

[Lord Dane]

So, I think this is the right place to post just an inquiry...if not, sorry!  I'm looking to start an armor kit at some point, hopefully in the near future.  Any suggestions on sites, people to inquire after, etc?

And if it makes any difference in breastplate shape, I am a female, so armor that works for either sex?

Thanks!

Many factors to consider:

1.) Anyone on this forum is good to ask about armor, weapons, etc options. Wealth of experience & knowledge on many topics amongst many of us, each with our own speciality & interests. Ask away & you'll get the answers you seek here. We have a link section for all things related to knightly stuff.
2.) Armor to your interest depends on what you hope to use it for & time period you seek to emulate. Do you want armor to be more time-period authentic or fantasy?? Do you want a kit for fighting or just display at faires?? What do you want your kit to look like & made of?? Do you have any preferences for your persona look or based upon any person specific you idolize?? Lots of things to consider before you spend your money.
3.) Armor for females can be uni-sexed but depends on the type of armor kit you desire & sizing, etc. You have to know what you want first & it makes it easier.

Hope this helps some.

[Sir James A]

Armor you say? Pull up a chair, then, 'tis my favorite subject! Let me help you spend your money.

As Lord Dane said, historical or fantasy?

Any particular region or time period? Basic style (mail, transitional, plate)?

Generally speaking, historical armor will fit a woman as well as a man, the only difference being in sizing for the arms and legs, but a breastplate/cuirass will, ahem, if there is not a large abundance of upper body tissue, also work for a woman as well as a man. Historically, women fought in a "mens" breastplate many times. From a modern perspective, the fantasy "form fitting" shape is very bad for combat, as it places a solid ridge over the sternum, exactly opposite of historical armor's protection, and makes for easy bone breaking - which is not a good thing.

So on that note, intent of the armor is vital too, both stylistically and material of construction - combat, or non-combat?

[Ian]

Armor 101.

1. Decide what you'll use it for.  (this determines if you need to get historical armor, or overbuilt armor)
2. Resist the temptation to buy crappy armor before you really know what you want.
3. Always develop and purchase good arming CLOTHES before buying any armor at all. (this is really the most important step, without good arming clothes, your armor no matter how perfectly fitted to you, will not function or feel comfortable).
4. If historical accuracy is a concern, select as specific a time period and region as possible to develop your style.  (this is most easily done by browsing through books, or looking at historical effigies of actual knights depicted in their harnesses).

[Lord Dane]

Most importantly, as Sir Ian stated:
Know what you want before you buy it!! Buying poorly made armor or arming gear is a waste of money & better spent on quality stuff. Most of us (if not all) look before we buy as we all have an interest in having a time-authentic (i.e. historical) look to our gear. In fact, most of us enjoy making our own stuff if we have the skills.
Comfort matters but so does price range. Find places that get you best quality for least price. We shop alot here. So look for bargains & barter!! Don't be pressured into getting something expensive just because it meets someone else's expectations. (We can give you options & love to help you spend your money. )

[Sir Edward]

I went ahead and moved this to the Armoury section of the forum. The "market square" is really more for buying/selling amongst each other. The Armory is where we talk about armor in general. Not a big deal, I'm just keeping organized.

Do you know what general time period you're interested in? 13th century is relatively cheap and easy since it's based around mail, for example, whereas a 15th century high-gothic harness would be more expensive and difficult to do.

The good news is that historically, women tended to wear pretty much the same stuff that men did when it came to armor. The key is to get it sized appropriately to you, which is important anyway.

As an aside, this is a particularly valid point with breastplates. The "fantasy" breastplates that try to have a female shape are not very good from a combat perspective, since it creates a space in the middle that can catch weapons, and can be driven into your ribs/sternum. You actually do want a smooth curvature, without "cups".

[Sir Edward]

Oh also, when you have an idea of what period you'd like, and style of foundation garments you want (and I realize we're just starting to talk about it, so you're not there yet), someone you might want to talk to is Jess Finley at Fuhlen Designs (that's her sewing business). She does historical combat, makes arming clothes, and is really good at both. And she's super friendly and enthusiastic too.

[Sir William]

I went ahead and moved this to the Armoury section of the forum. The "market square" is really more for buying/selling amongst each other. The Armory is where we talk about armor in general. Not a big deal, I'm just keeping organized.

Do you know what general time period you're interested in? 13th century is relatively cheap and easy since it's based around mail, for example, whereas a 15th century high-gothic harness would be more expensive and difficult to do.

The good news is that historically, women tended to wear pretty much the same stuff that men did when it came to armor. The key is to get it sized appropriately to you, which is important anyway.

As an aside, this is a particularly valid point with breastplates. The "fantasy" breastplates that try to have a female shape are not very good from a combat perspective, since it creates a space in the middle that can catch weapons, and can be driven into your ribs/sternum. You actually do want a smooth curvature, without "cups".

That's true...as cool as they look and I think we'd all agree, it'd look really cool, it isn't necessarily safe or period.  So far as I know about periodicity for its own sake.

[LadyRiona]

Firstly, thank you Ed, for moving the topic to it's proper place!

Secondly, thanks everyone for the info so far!

As far as the shape of the breastplate...I always thought it was silly for it to have the cups, it kind of made me think, "Hey, perfect targets."  So the smooth look of the breastplate it what I was looking for.

I've always loved the medieval style of everything, regular clothing, armor, etc.  So that is the historical era I'll be looking at.  Seeing as I want to be in the rough and tumble portion of it, I'm looking for a fight kit.

More importantly, I want a historical authentic kit, not a fantasy kit.  I'm a renaissance reenactor, so "historical" is bludgeoned into my brain.

But as Ian mentioned, arming clothes are super important.  I sew my own garb...do you guys know of any places that give instruction for making ones own arming clothes?  Or should I talk to Jess Finley?  (Thank you for the link, Ed.)

Also, as far as cost goes, I'm not looking for super expensive pieces, just basic, sturdy stuff.  If any armorers are willing to work with me, that'd be great.

Thanks again everyone!  This is all very exciting.

[Ian]

I made my own arming garment appropriate from about 1350-1415 or so, with the 1415 being a stretch (maybe for a poor knight or as a hand-me-down to a man-at-arms).
http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,2516.0.html

That pattern is available on lulu.com and if you're already experienced with sewing, it shouldn't be very difficult for you.

I would highly recommend you try to narrow your focus to at the widest, a 25-30 year span of time so that we can more appropriately help you.  Give me a few minutes and I will try to post representative knightly harnesses from various eras.

[Ian]

Quick armor evolution primer
Short maille cotte transitions in to long maille hauberk by the 12th century, maille dominates armor until about 1300.  Bits of plate (particularly elbows and knees) are worn over the full maille harness.  By the mid 14th century, Coats of Plate (small plates sewn or riveted to a fabric shell) protect the torso, legs are protected by steel, arms are protected by steel.  By the end of the 14th century we almost have complete coverage of armor.  15th Century armor is virtually full protection head to toe, including a cuirass (full breast and backplate).  16th century armor literally is full coverage, almost no gaps.  Then armor starts to shrink again as firearms become the dominant weapon on the battle field.

And of course in addition to armor changing, so are the arming garments beneath the harness.

These images are by no means the end-all be-all of what a harness was in that period, but it will give you an idea to help you narrow your focus to something manageable.  My personal taste is to make a harness as authentic as budgets allow.  I'm partial to the 14th century, and that's where most of my knowledge lies.

1066:

12th Century Crusader

13th Century Knight

Turn of the 14th Century

Mid 14th Century

Late 14th Century

Early 15th Century

Late 15th Century German Style

Late 15th Century Italian Style

16th Century

[Ian]

On thing to help you keep perspective.  That first knight is separated in time from the last night by close to 500 years.  That's about how far you are separated from that last night in time as well.

Once you narrow down the general timeframe you're interested in, the next step is the research part.  One of the ideal resources to get started is this website:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/

Enter in a search string of years you're interested in, select 'martial' under costume and begin to look at all the dead knights of that era and see what they were wearing.  This is basically how we justify selections for our kits.  If it's not documented in that period on an effigy or in artwork, it's probably not a good idea to use in Living History.  You should also narrow down a region (which can be done on that same website), because it will change the look of your kit.  A German Knight of 1365 looks very different from his English counterpart.

[B. Patricius]

I can't emphasize enough what Sir Ian has already stated:

1) undergarments are crucial!!  I can't believe how well I move and how comfortable I am now that I have proper braies (underpants like overgrown boxer shorts), hose, and a muslin shirt underneath my crusader kit. 
1A) padded undergarments - depending on how you're built, you may want to have it custom made for you, I'm one of the ones that doesn't fit the "sizes."  Basically I have a broad chest and large arms, but I'm only about 5'7" or so.  All of the arms are way too long on a chest that fits me, which makes the elbows intolerable.  Also if you're going full plate, the undergarments become more of something to strap the armour too, rather than being armour itself.

2) the periods can drastically increase the costs of getting there.  Earlier kits can look amazing, and be had for very little money, if you're crafty and willing to put in the time to make them.  It can cost more for a mail hauberk than for full black & white harness made right, or it can cost you about $150 with tools, if you're willing to put in the work.

Effigiesandbrasses.com and manuscriptminiatures.com definitely are great resources.  Also if I may be allowed to "toot my own horn" so to speak, I have this http://pinterest.com/tanukidomo/13th-17th-cent-europewma/ pinterest board.  Most are links to other resources, and a lot are extant archaeological examples of the real thing.  Take a look around and let us know what period, and pretty much down to a couple of decades, we can help get you there!

YIS
B. Patricius

[Sir James A]

Somebody you might have seen at VARF 2 weekends ago is Jeff Wasson's wife (whose name I don't know)

[Ian]

Stacy