inspiration and reference I:33 and earlier medieval/crusades martial arts

[B. Patricius]

Hey everyone,

just thought I'd post what I've found that has been quite good lately on I:33.  Let me know what you think and please by all means, anything related to I:33 or your personal experiences working within it (as I know a lot of you have) please post here!

Mr. Richard's work
http://www.youtube.com/user/FioredieLiberi/videos?query=I.33
A I.33 playlist with some good stuff
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL41B0669923A445D5
Ottowa's Classical Swordplay
http://www.youtube.com/user/OttawaSwordplay/videos?query=I.33
Mr. Ainsley's work
http://www.youtube.com/user/philainsley1

lastly, just a really cool poster I'd like to don my wall 


and on that note, I'm going to be conducting hopefully soon, my "grand experiment."  Throughout history things have evolved and are continually related to one another.  I:33 is our oldest fight book on the archaeological record at the moment. 

Sword and heater, Sword and kite, unfortunately have no book on training, although recent inquiries I have made claim that at some point the Holy Chivalric Orders, particularly the Knights Hospitalier and the Knights Templar had training manuals.  Wouldn't it be a wonderful find to find those again!

So on that note, with that one assumption of fighting arts developing based on earlier pieces, I'm going to deconstruct I:33 in its relation to earlier fighting methods.  Particularly sword and heater, and sword and kite.  It's interesting by some of the movements and transitions in I:33 would be very effective with a kite shield as well, since it has a rounded top.  Needless to say, that got me thinking.

Basically now I'm trying to get my armour kit settled, along with making my shield based off this excellent resource: http://yeoldegaffers.com/project_shield.asp

[Sir Edward]

Some of those videos from WMAW have Roland Warzecha (who made the poster) in them, and I've seen what he does. The man is a true master, IMHO.

[Sir William]

A style I prefer over the longswording my brethren engage in.

[Sir Edward]

I don't get a lot of opportunity to practice sword and buckler, but when we do some of the plays in slow-motion to get the actions right, I can see why it was so pervasive historically. It's extremely versatile.

To me, the problem with "sword and shield" is that the shield is quite heavy and gets in the way. While not a lot of material on the shield's use survives, there is some. The Bolognese swordsmanship techniques that use the rotella shield give us some insights, for instance. Don't get me wrong though, I can see how very effective and protective it is as well. Though I'd be tempted to leave the shield on my back, and use a buckler in my hand.

[Sir William]

I managed to get ahold of one of the Windlass round shields- too thin at 18 gauge (started showing signs of wear after one session with foam swords if you can believe it) - but even so, its quite handy.  I imagine a buckler would be even more so.  Who knows, maybe we'll eventually be able to put together a demo along with the longsword ones in the future.  Its a fast, fun way to play.

[B. Patricius]

I must say the side-tracking is hilarious!  At the moment, Sean (I believe is his name) founder of Claiomh, he and that group are looking into precedence for strapping the claymore on their backs, however it would have been only to keep it there, never to draw from.  That and it is specifically very Gaelic in nature, and 15th/16th century to boot. 

Back to original topic, any way to see what an authentic kite shield was made from or out of?  Because in all seriousness, plywood, let alone laminated plywood is so much heavier than basic wood.  Its weight is from all the glue keeping it together.  Wouldn't surprise me if the shields weren't nearly as heavy as we think.  After all if it was too clumsy, something else would have taken its place all the quicker.  Round shields had been around forever.  The kite had its purpose, same as the heater.  If I had access to my old shop's tools, I'd be able to work up a slatted kite shield in a manner of about a day, 3/4" thick, 3-6" wide slats, all with an interlocking finish.  Although, admittedly, they didn't have lathes, table saws, and routers back then either... so maybe I can still try to make it with only my hand tools.  I do like working with wood by hand.  It's a "Gibbsism" of mine according to my friends  

It'd be interesting to find out.  After all, before Peter Johnsson and others, and it's sad to say, to the vast majority of people still, WMA and their weapons was just a bunch of brutes clubbing it out.  Something I will forever try to abolish in the minds of people willing to listen.

YIS
B. Patricius

PS:  In the most respectful manner possible, Sir Edward, any way can we steer clear of using the term "sword and board" for movements, and works with the kite/heater shield and earlier single handed broadswords?  My only reason for this is the negative connotation I at least have noticed associated with "sword and board."  Either side, basically a simplified version would be SCA vs HEMA/WMA use "sword and board" it seems at least on other forums for a pervasive manner.  Of either SCA: "Sword and board" is our "art, a-frame, flat-snapping ass-wrapping good time with a stick" and HEMA/WMA then using that as a way to argue them being different.

Personally, I tire of both.  And I do mean this in the most respectful way.  I know plenty of us enjoy the SCA, HEMA, WMA, etc etc.  In fact, I do all the above, as one can always learn from another if given the opportunity.

I just wish to steer clear of the term within this discussion for the simple fact that what I have personally seen within the SCA and HEMA/WMA community is the difference between the "stick" and the "sword."

I hope that cleared the water out the get go, and didn't make it muddier.  If it did, I guess I can go into further detail.  And again, these are all based on my own personal observations, however seen at numerous wars within Caid, West, and Atenveldt, vs WMA/HEMA training schools I have had the privilege to train at across this country.

[Sir Edward]

PS:  In the most respectful manner possible, Sir Edward, any way can we steer clear of using the term "sword and board" for movements,

Fair enough, I've altered my wording.

[B. Patricius]

I honestly would like to know how a discussion of I:33 became something entirely random on broadswords being strapped to your back?  Because also knowing that Lord Dane was the one who started it, I can't help but feel a tinge of sarcasm within it.  Especially when I had already posted about a very reputable group looking into the idea that Gallowglass warriors possibly at least carried their massive swords on their backs.  I own a few claymores and let me tell you, carrying that thing any other way is more impractical than any kind of evidence refuting the fact they could or should.

I mean come on, really?  what happened to respecting the original poster's requests and topics rather than hijacking a thread?  I, may be new to this group, but I have a fair bit of knowledge, particularly within the realms experimental archaeology.  Which I:33 being adapted to an earlier time period is one of my studies.  I'd like to know what the joke is?  It's one of the older surviving documents, it's easy enough to see an evolution of martial arts from an earlier style in a "newer" one.  I am really disappointed seeing as it's Lord Dane, who I assume is a member of the law enforcement community, and Sir Ian, a Navy Officer who also happens to be a pilot and both very respected within the medieval re-enactment community as a whole.

I just can't see anything having to do with back scabbards being anything but a sarcastic joke especially with members I know already know quite a bit.  I just see it as something more as a "I:33 related to earlier martial arts, what a joke, let's add to it" kind of response...

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm having a hard time believing it at the moment.  *and that concludes my soapbox rant by the noob not understanding inside jokes or sidetracks at all.

[Sir Edward]

Yeah, I think it's just a sidetrack in this case. Sorry for the thread derailment.

I've split the back-scabbard discussion out to here:

http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,2482.msg35552.html

[Lord Dane]

Sorry for any topic change. I was just curious as I was thinking of carrying my longsword in a baldric and wanted to know how historical it would be with my kit. That's all.

[Sir William]

As long as it is at your side and not on your back, you should be ok. 

Although, I believe baldrics were used prior to what we'd term the High Middle Ages (1100AD on), still they seem to have made a comeback during the Renaissance.  Those more knowledgeable than me will weigh in, of course.

[Sir Edward]

Back to original topic, any way to see what an authentic kite shield was made from or out of?  Because in all seriousness, plywood, let alone laminated plywood is so much heavier than basic wood.  Its weight is from all the glue keeping it together.  Wouldn't surprise me if the shields weren't nearly as heavy as we think.  After all if it was too clumsy, something else would have taken its place all the quicker. 

I think you're quite right. I suspect they were made relatively light. We do know they were relatively disposable compared to other gear.

The shield I have from Mercenary's Tailor I think is a pretty good weight. It's strong, but not overly heavy. I could fight with that.

[B. Patricius]

Thanks Sir Edward,

and yeah, just thinking about it in my head, anything built with plywood, be it nicer or fubar, is way too heavy in comparison to any kind of solid wood.  One time as an experiment in a wood shop class we built a cheap coffee table from wallyworld that was all ply and fiber board, and a full arts & crafts, mortise and tenon (very similar to medieval joinery).  It weighed 30% lighter even though it was a much stouter looking and ten times better built piece.  I just wish I won the raffle to get to keep it! 

Basically, with rabbits, mortise and tenons, dovetails, etc with a solid 3/4" wood lapped together to make a shield, I just have to feel it's quite a bit lighter, or at least better balanced, as the mass and weight of the wood is far different than plywood so the weight of the shield boss would also balance out differently than what we're used to.  Also, I've held a rather heavy kite shield, made from ply but it was strapped and padded impeccably well and looked very period.  That shield, once strapped to my arm almost had no weight but just a presence in a way, much like a nice falchion or saber. I didn't really recognize its weight until hours later when I stopped practicing with it.

I need to wait for my rather mundane real life stuff to get situated and the move to be all organized and complete, but it's something I want to try.  Period documents state the shields didn't last very long, a battle, maybe two at the most, so I think our wants and desires for a durable shield have made it a bit unbalanced and ungainly in the process.

I managed to get ahold of one of the Windlass round shields- too thin at 18 gauge (started showing signs of wear after one session with foam swords if you can believe it) - but even so, its quite handy.  I imagine a buckler would be even more so.  Who knows, maybe we'll eventually be able to put together a demo along with the longsword ones in the future.  Its a fast, fun way to play.

Sir William, I sincerely apologize for replying to this so late, I think it got lost in all the side-tracked stuff going on earlier, and I thank Sir Edward for cleaning that up.  I'm hoping I will be able to contribute something that can become a guide for others to practice with, a kata, in traditional eastern martial arts terms, much like the 7 stances of I.33 or movements with a longsword through their guards that then evolve into cuts and parries as the swordsman improves.  I'll be posting plenty of this on here and on youtube as well.  I was shopping yesterday for a new camera, and we've decided to save a bit for the 1080p epic Nikkon we saw.

[B. Patricius]

Lord Dane,

it's quite alright, I just wasn't sure where exactly that came from or why.  For most kits though, except maybe a Gallowglass, back scabbards aren't documentable and even then, for the Gallowglass, it's more a theory than anything.

Baldrics actually don't seem to be all that pre-Elizabethan at all, more of a Cavalier, mid 17th century onward type of development

beyond that,

here's the shield I was thinking of:

[Lord Dane]

Nice kite style shield.