SCA Culture Question

[Ian]

i have a question for the SCA guys, or anyone else who has an opinin on the matter.

Is there a cultural reason within the SCA that accounts for the over-representation of Eastern European / Rus etc styles of armor for heavy kits?  I see very little representation of Western European medieval kit in photos and videos of events and wars out there.   This is just one person's observation, and maybe I'm totally wrong.  Thoughts?

[Lord Dane]

i have a question for the SCA guys, or anyone else who has an opinin on the matter.

Is there a cultural reason within the SCA that accounts for the over-representation of Eastern European / Rus etc styles of armor for heavy kits?  I see very little representation of Western European medieval kit in photos and videos of events and wars out there.   This is just one person's observation, and maybe I'm totally wrong.  Thoughts?

Personally Ian, I think more SCA guys are just drawn the the eastern style. I have to admit that lamellar, scales, etc do seem to be more predominant armor kit choices amongst seasoned fighters from my experience. I still prefer 'western' because it is more my heritage for me but the armor types and variations coincide with personal preference and personas of the fighter. Lamellar and scales is certainly more comfortable than maille and plate. Not to mention the padding in thinner layers is not as cumbersome. I would sacrifice some protection for comfort and mobility in fighting but it varies...

[Thorsteinn]

I'm not sure. I did mine because it's my heritage.

Other than that Byzantine, Scandinavia, and Varangians are just cool.

[Ian]

Does that style of armor lend itself more to the style of fighting that makes one successful in the heavy lyst?  I just find the ratio counter-intuitive because generally speaking Western European medieval culture is usually the more commonly reproduced culture everywhere else.

[Sir William]

I thought it boiled down to personal taste...and perhaps some financial consideration thrown in.  I have noted how many SCAers that sport lamellar kits have crafted them by themselves using kits of pre-cut and punched scales, rope cord and elbow grease; the same can't be said for a white harness, for instance.  Not to mention you can buy a fully built lamellar harness for a good deal less than a similarly protective plate harness, depending on who is making it.  Its probably easier to replace/relace a few plates than pounding out dents in a similar plate harness.  Just my thought on it.

Thorsteinn, didn't you build yours?

[Lord Dane]

Does that style of armor lend itself more to the style of fighting that makes one successful in the heavy lyst?  I just find the ratio counter-intuitive because generally speaking Western European medieval culture is usually the more commonly reproduced culture everywhere else.

The armor certainly does have its advantages but it must also coincide with the disadvantages in the fighter's skill level and fighting style in Western vs. Eastern. I have taken some Eastern style armor pieces and managed to make them work in my Western style kits effectively. My background is in Eastern style martial arts & weapon styles but I have adapted to learning Western style fighting techniques. It does help to be lightweight in foot combat against multiple opponents with Eastern armor being more advantage in mobility, visibility. However, in heavy list combat against singular opponents, the Western style armor gives better protection but lessens in other areas mentioned. So it comes down to weighing the two against each other.

[Sir Vander Linde]

I think it has to do with effort, when it comes to maintaining the armor, its use, and its acquisition. Many of the guys I talk too more often than not don’t know much about the historical fighting tactics and their kits, most of them just do it for fun, and power to them for that.
 So why all the eastern kits? Easy to make, easy to acquire, and the average Joe for the most part knows nothing about the eastern parts of Europe, so they can get away with a little more stuff. (Many of the SCA guys by me tend not to know anything at all and call themselves swords-men even though they have never fought with a sword; they are more like LARPers with rattan instead of foam. It could and most likely is different elsewhere but by me that is how it is   )

[Lord Chagatai]

For me I use an Eastern style kit because it is more to my persona than anything else. The other reason is, I built it myself (great satisfaction) and it was fairly inexpensive to do, the helmet was the most expensive part. When I first started I used a more western style kit and it was so cumbersome I was failing as a fighter and couldn't fight very well. By changing my kit, I was able to move better and fight better. My knight is training in sabre style sword fighting and this kit makes it easier to do that. I took great pride in building my own stuff. I also did cause a mongol warrior would use what he found as armor if it was still in go working order so the look that I use works good for that part of the persona history. If you have other questions let me know...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Rhydderch]

I am not sure about the SCA, but I just had a discussion with our local group's blacksmith (we are part of the Adrian Empire) about this. For Adria, it seems that only European armor allows for a person to meet the safety requirements imposed by the organization.

[Sir James A]

Easy to make, easy to acquire, and the average Joe for the most part knows nothing about the eastern parts of Europe, so they can get away with a little more stuff.

That would be my guess.

[Lord Dane]

Easy to make, easy to acquire, and the average Joe for the most part knows nothing about the eastern parts of Europe, so they can get away with a little more stuff.

That would be my guess.

Agreed on that.

[Ian]

I think it goes beyond cheaper and easier.  I think the sport itself forces people down that road because of the way armor functions (or doesn't) in SCA heavy.  Armor doesn't 'protect' you in the SCA.  It does in the literal sense of the word, but if you get hit in your 14th century rerebrace with a sword, you 'lose your arm'.  So why would I wear cumbersome armor if it doesn't help me win?  I think it just leads to shedding armor to the absolute minimum required to give you an advantage in the sport.  This ultimately is what turned me off to SCA heavy.

[Sir James A]

I know what you mean about the sport aspect. Hidden plastic is the lightest and most mobile, with no penalty as far as combat. The one season I did SCA heavy, I did it in a pseudo-16th-century-italian-inspired harness, and I sucked. I lost a solid 95% of the time (or more). Could I have been remotely competitive in 70-ish pounds of armor compared to others in 20-25 pounds? Nope, not at my athletic level. Even at peak, I would have to be considerably better to squeak out a few wins by having so much more encumbrance. I even wore cased greaves, just because I liked the look, even though lower leg isn't a valid target (mistakes happen).

Was it fun? Yep. Do I prefer WMA / living history instead of "sport" style competition? Yep. Personal preference, and those who enjoy SCA seem to really enjoy it, so more power to them - as long as there's swords involved, I won't complain.

Hidden armor, leather armor - all look appropriate on the eastern european styles, to my eye, but I don't know much of those styles either, beyond bazubands and basic helmets / cuirass (char aina).

[Sir Edward]

It does seem to go beyond combat though. I see a lot of middle-eastern style clothing and decoration at Pennsic too. So the style itself must hold broad appeal in the SCA as well.

One theory I had was that some folks did it just to be different, and then it caught on.

[Lord Chagatai]

I love the game and I love the look of the Asian stuff...I personally like the culture and the discipline involved...I too am not that good at SCA combat but I am learning and it is always a learning process...I am better than most and I think if I were to do some sort of martial art outside of SCA I would be better.

The kit you use depends on what sort of persona you are going for...alot of asian personas wore just clothing and lots of it to try and protect and as the killed they picked up stuff and made it work (at least the mongols) but go with what you like, a lot of the SCA is look (pomp and circumstance)...you have to look good while fighting...

Just my opinion


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD