Finally! Good News!

[Joshua Santana]

Brethren!  Hearken to this article I came across. 

http://femininemystiquetwra.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/good-news-chivalry-lives-on/

This is great news!  However bear in mind that it does have political and social comments. 

What say Ye Brethren?

[Thorsteinn]

I think the forty or so female KSCA would have a problem with this article.

Especially Duchess Sir Rowan Beatrice von Kampfer who won the Crown of Ansteorra by her own hand in Finals versus her Husband.

So too all the women on the below list including the current Princess of Cynagua Sir Mari Alexander, and Duchess Sir Bryne McClellan who won the Coronet of The Mists by her own hand.

Me personally, I want an equal. So if she is higher than I, I will thus raise myself to be her mate, her champion and her savior as she will be mine. If she be lower then I shall raise her up with love to show her the power and glory of her inner self.

http://www.swordmaiden.net/home/history/sca-female-fighters/by-right-of-arms/

[Sir James A]

There's a whole lot of things in my head regarding that, but I think it best they stay in my head.

[Sir Brian]

Not to make this overly simplistic but for me I am chivalrous towards women out of courtesy and upbringing with a keen understanding that if a woman does not respond positively to such considerations then they are not ladies in accordance with my perceptions and such considerations are wasted upon them. Furthermore, for me to insist upon applying those considerations after knowing they are unwanted would in fact be discourteous.

In reference to the article the ‘feminists’ are welcome to their beliefs however they should also be fully prepared to live by them; - i.e. to insist that I treat such a person with the same consideration as I would a man is not a problem, just so long as they understand that I regard all males as potential adversaries and will interact with them accordingly because ultimately it is the duplicity of their expectations of how men should treat them that I find despicable.

[Joshua Santana]

I knew this would be the reaction and I will input my reason for posting this.

Thorsteinn: I would think so too, feminists do appear to be out of touch with the other side of women as seen clearly in the SCA.  You have noble intentions and I do likewise the same with the Lady that gives companionship to this stout warrior heart of mine.

Sir James: Kudos for Prudence! 

Sir Brian: You and I are quite similar in upbringing.  Not all women are the same and those that know what we believe in will in kind be respectful if not supportive of what we believe in.

How can we be chivalrous to women who don't know what Honor, Courage, Loyalty, Faith, Nobility are to show us respect, it is like they are "destroyed for lack of knowledge". 

You are correct and I will state this.  I came across this article of facebook, I read and I perceived this to be good news or a harbinger of something we can anticipate in the near future.  The feminist movement in the past have been aggressors against those who carry the Chivalric legacy, yet with this I am beginning to see a waning which if the opportunity arrives can be a revolutionary moment in which we Knights of The Order of The Marshal can ignite a cultural revival of Chivalry.  Think about it, spreading the value and importance of what we all are sworn to follow and to live to our last heart beat and the message spreading like wildfire. It can do great justice to the cause of this Order and to all other Chivalric Orders (yes even the SCA) here in this country. 

I know I sound like a visionary or someone quixotic crazy.  But I do not deny that if there was an opportunity to spread the Code of Chivalry, I would not miss it. 

[Lord Dane]

I knew this would be the reaction and I will input my reason for posting this.

Thorsteinn: I would think so too, feminists do appear to be out of touch with the other side of women as seen clearly in the SCA.  You have noble intentions and I do likewise the same with the Lady that gives companionship to this stout warrior heart of mine.

Sir James: Kudos for Prudence! 

Sir Brian: You and I are quite similar in upbringing.  Not all women are the same and those that know what we believe in will in kind be respectful if not supportive of what we believe in.

How can we be chivalrous to women who don't know what Honor, Courage, Loyalty, Faith, Nobility are to show us respect, it is like they are "destroyed for lack of knowledge". 

You are correct and I will state this.  I came across this article of facebook, I read and I perceived this to be good news or a harbinger of something we can anticipate in the near future.  The feminist movement in the past have been aggressors against those who carry the Chivalric legacy, yet with this I am beginning to see a waning which if the opportunity arrives can be a revolutionary moment in which we Knights of The Order of The Marshal can ignite a cultural revival of Chivalry.  Think about it, spreading the value and importance of what we all are sworn to follow and to live to our last heart beat and the message spreading like wildfire. It can do great justice to the cause of this Order and to all other Chivalric Orders (yes even the SCA) here in this country. 

I know I sound like a visionary or someone quixotic crazy.  But I do not deny that if there was an opportunity to spread the Code of Chivalry, I would not miss it.

'Ignorance' is not a defense in the law nor is it one in showing a lack of respect in response to 'common courtesy & decency'. Claiming a lack of knowledge is not acceptable to me now-a-days when knowledge is abundant & accessible to all. Learning is a continuous part of life, as it is ever changing. Once you are introduced to it and comprehend the reason, it should become expectation that you learn from it and conform accordingly. When you open your mind, you also open the door to understanding and become the better for it through simple exposure. I have no regards for people that blame their poor behavior on upbringing or on some fixated mindset, and even less for those who refuse to change it.

Here's some food for thought for those feminists who are so easily offended by chivalrous courtesy... If you think someone holding a door for you is insulting because someone is attempting to show you kindness ... just wait until that same door gets slammed in your face. See the difference???   

   

[Jessica Finley]

As a thought exercise, consider for a moment a woman who *insists* that you perform these 'chivalrous' acts of holding open doors and closing them for her, pulling out her chair and pushing it in, etc.

Imagine, for a moment, everywhere you went with this woman, she would walk up to a door and stand there.  Not saying anything about it, simply waiting for you to open the door to the car so she can get in.  At dinner, she says, "I would like to visit the lady's room" and continues to sit in her chair until you put down your fork, get up, come around and pull out her chair for her to get up. 

You might find this gets annoying after a while.  You might think to yourself, "Can't she open a darn door?". 

The extremes of these ideas is the problem, of course.  I am a "do it yourself" kind of woman, not out of offence or feminism, but simply because I am from the midwest and we are of pioneer stock.  It's simply assumed that everyone pulls their own weight in all things.  So, these sorts of niceties weren't as prevalent as they are here on a coast.  While I am *fine* with someone pulling out a chair, opening a door, holding my hand as I come down icy stairs, etc., I feel uncomfortable because it is unfamiliar.  I feel awkward, ungraceful, unsure.  Like someone asking me to waltz, when I have no idea how to do so. 

I am sure the reverse would be true, were a woman to insist upon all of these things being done for her, that many men would feel uncomfortable with the insistence. 

[Sir Edward]

I think it's also useful to remember that you can be 'chivalrous' (in this context) to men as well. I try to hold doors for absolutely everyone, for instance.   There's a level of common courtesy that you can extend to everyone. If they're unreceptive, it's no big deal, you can just move on.

[Sir James A]

I'm of a similar mind to Thorsteinn; I don't want a subservient, nor do I want to be one, either. I want an equal. If a woman was unable to open a door, then it's expected that we should do so. If she's able to open the door, yet, we do so out of love / kindness / common courtesy, it is in a completely different context. Doing for others what they can do for themselves, compared to doing for others what they cannot do, are two different sides of the coin to me.

For the lucky few who can afford to be the sole income of the house and raise a family, kudos to you. I'm personally uncomfortable with a mate who doesn't work. I know I'm going to die (unless my Highlander fantasies come true...), and when I'm dead, I don't want to be on my death bed thinking of how my spouse will not be able to support herself alone (and potentially kids) after my death. I want to know she *is* capable of opening her own doors, earning her own money, and supporting herself without reliance on another; not that she'll have to seek out another man to survive after my death. With the equality, I feel I'm actually *doing* something appreciated, rather than expected or insisted upon, when I open a door, carry a bag, take her to a movie, to dinner, etc.

I can, and have, washed dishes, done laundry, vacuumed, cleaned, and so on, while married. I do not consider that "woman's work" or a wife's responsibility. There are those who are happy in being home-makers and care-givers, and I salute them. It's a job that is greatly under-appreciated by many, and something fewer and fewer couples every year can afford to do.

[Joshua Santana]

You make very good points.  The recognition of respect or in this case Chivalry is an individual based perspective and it can vary from one individual to another.

In regards to the article, knowledge is accessible for sure, however the application of knowledge is what is most needed.  The knowledge of Honor and living by it requires more than theory, it requires application of the theory or ideals.  (Lord Dane, I like your ending comment and I agree with you.)

Ah Mrs. Finely!  You are most correct and insooth this is the case most of the time (let us all be grounded in reality or "let's be real").  Your point is something I can wrap my head around and being of pioneer stock is a good thing (gentlemen take note!) and is complimentary and beneficial to the Chivalrous Lifestyle.  What i would say to a lady who is not familiar with these mannerisms is "let me bless you with courtesy (or chivalry since we are professional knights  )"  or I would ask her "would you want to know why I do these things"?  This is a great starting point for a conversation topic and it serves as a lesson in Humility, knowing that there are people who have never even heard of Chivalry, what does that makes?  Not just swordsmen/swordswomen, Knights (professional), Warriors, and heralds in a darkening time, but also teachers.  Teaching the young, the maturing and those who have not heard or known the value of Honor, Loyalty, Faith, Courage, Nobility and Humility. 

Sir Edward:  Sire you are not the only one who does this, in fact that is why I think I will dub myself as "The Doorman Knight".

Sir James:  You speak truth and I agreed with you most of the time.    What i will say is this (not to make this into one of my infamous lengthy speeches).  Doing these acts out of love/kindness/courtesy extended to all is the way to go.  Teamwork is essential if not vital for a building a strong foundation in life but also marriage and family.  It is critical that you continue to build a means to support your family if you were not going to live on (Heaven forbid).  This is the purpose of an inheritance or leaving behind something that will benefit others after you are gone (I cannot help but remember what the Marshal said on his death bed when asked about the tournament money).

Bravo, same here, I am the pest control, dish washer, vacuum man, laundry delivery boy (yes  I do laundry), cleaner and so on.  I am busy around the clock and I know the future Lady will greatly appreciate this aspect of me.  I agree that care-takers and home-makers do a great service to others.   

[Sir William]

Claiming a lack of knowledge is not acceptable to me now-a-days when knowledge is abundant & accessible to all. Learning is a continuous part of life, as it is ever changing. Once you are introduced to it and comprehend the reason, it should become expectation that you learn from it and conform accordingly. When you open your mind, you also open the door to understanding and become the better for it through simple exposure. I have no regards for people that blame their poor behavior on upbringing or on some fixated mindset, and even less for those who refuse to change it.

I think it's also useful to remember that you can be 'chivalrous' (in this context) to men as well. I try to hold doors for absolutely everyone, for instance.   There's a level of common courtesy that you can extend to everyone. If they're unreceptive, it's no big deal, you can just move on.

I agree wholeheartedly with both of these statements.  I also get what Jess is saying- as a man who opens/holds doors for his wife, I don't find it annoying as if I'm not there to open the door, she'll do it for herself...all the while appreciating that I want to do it for her.

I don't see chivalrous behavior as 'taking something away' from a woman's sense of self or individuality or ability to take care of herself...maybe it is a little old fashioned but that's how I was raised.  That I have aspired and attained knighthood, it only makes sense that such comportment would resonate with me, and those of similar mind.

I see nothing wrong with performing domestic duties- as Sir James and others have intimated that they do, I too do the dishes, the laundry, take out the trash and handle the housekeeping when it is necessary.  Granted, my wife likes puttering about the house cleaning this or that, but it isn't 'her' job as opposed to mine.  We work together to make our house the way we want it.  Interesting tidbit: she will take the trash down to the trash can but has no earthly desire to ever pick up a wrench or know how to do anything that is landscaping or automotive-related...those are strictly for me. 

[Sir James A]

Joshua, indeed, I do have life insurance as well as savings. Having seen my grandparents pass on, my grandfather died nearly 10 years before my grandmother. She lived to about 85; and in a rather heartwrenching fashion, was literally months away from us having the finances to pay for the nursing home she spent years in (after falling and being unable to live alone). And this is from a grandfather who worked 2 jobs nearly his entire life, bought a piece of land, and he and his children built both houses on it by hand .. no electrician, no plumber, no carpenter - basement dug by hand with shovels, laid every concrete block, every board .. and did it again when he bought more land and built his cabin on it. And seeing my parents struggle and lose money from savings every month as my father "retired" at 65 now but they do not have the income to support themselves without him continuing to work (and looking for work). The hardest part is that saving 10 years of salary, in 30 years, is often only enough to live for a few years because of inflation. Having a way to generate income is of utmost importance to me; it doesn't need to be doctor's salary, simply enough to live on.

[Sir Sorbus]

This is, indeed, good and encouraging news!

I would comment more, but, as much as it bugs me to toot my own horn all the time, my views are best expressed here: http://movementofnewchivalry.tumblr.com/post/34995751671/chivalry-and-sexism

I really ought to expand on that one day. Perhaps when the personal blogs are started.

[Joshua Santana]

Sir William:  Salient points indeed. 

Sir James: I understand and I might add that is what we "young ones" have got to be doing and you set a good example.

Sir Sorbus: I think your blog post sums up your response and you make very good points to boot.