Mail shirts with front openings

[Sir James A]

While digging around for a couple pictures for Sir Ulrich's mail thread, I stumbled on something that I never noticed / forgot seeing on Wade Allen's site:

http://www.allenantiques.com/M-1.html

and

http://www.allenantiques.com/M-14.html

The first one actually opens down the entire front. It's a 17th century piece, though.

The second one has a front split like a deep "V" shirt. He says the collar looks to have been added later, but the "U" dropped neckline looks original. Both shirts have minimal losses, so the shape should be accurate to what it originally was.

There is period artwork that shows our lovely "mail dance" with knights trying to dance their mail off over their heads, but I'm starting to wonder if mail designed to be pulled on like a shirt and then laced shut might actually have some kind of historical basis to it, and not just my own invention of convenience/laziness....

Thoughts?

[Ian]

I would love for their to be a historical basis for this pre 17th century.  I would cut my haubergeon down the middle in a heartbeat if I could justify it historically.

[Sir Edward]

I left my new hauberk open in the front just as a matter of convenience (my god that thing would be hard to snake myself into otherwise, since I sized it to be snug). I'm also wondering though if we might be able to find historical examples that opened at the back. It seems more likely, since you'd want protection without a seam in the front, and back-lacing could be easily done with a squire.

[Sir Ulrich]

I should try doing this to mine.... I mean I wear it under a surcoat anyway so it's not like anyones gonna notice. Would save my gambeson a bit of durability too.

[Jessica Finley]

Hey guys -

Bob Charette showed me photos he took of a "double-breasted" mail shirt in Musee de L'Armee in Paris.  The label says its Nuremburg work from c1350.

It overlapped in the front what looked about a foot, and hooked closed.  So, in fact, rather than being "exposed" in the front, you were double-protected! 

It also had a "tail" that pulled up between the legs and hooked before and above the groin, providing protection to that area simply and comfortably.

Cut away, say I!

Jess

[Sir James A]

I left my new hauberk open in the front just as a matter of convenience (my god that thing would be hard to snake myself into otherwise, since I sized it to be snug). I'm also wondering though if we might be able to find historical examples that opened at the back. It seems more likely, since you'd want protection without a seam in the front, and back-lacing could be easily done with a squire.

I'll have to dig a bit, but I had a picture or two that showed a plate cuirass that looked like it was hinged on the sides and opened in the back. It caught my eye for two reasons, one, it seemed exceedingly rare, and two, there is a design of samurai armor the same way.

Hey guys -

Bob Charette showed me photos he took of a "double-breasted" mail shirt in Musee de L'Armee in Paris.  The label says its Nuremburg work from c1350.

It overlapped in the front what looked about a foot, and hooked closed.  So, in fact, rather than being "exposed" in the front, you were double-protected! 

It also had a "tail" that pulled up between the legs and hooked before and above the groin, providing protection to that area simply and comfortably.

Cut away, say I!

Jess

Wow! Now *that* sounds like a very unique piece. Long before I saw any "mail braies", either.

[Lord Dane]

I left my new hauberk open in the front just as a matter of convenience (my god that thing would be hard to snake myself into otherwise, since I sized it to be snug). I'm also wondering though if we might be able to find historical examples that opened at the back. It seems more likely, since you'd want protection without a seam in the front, and back-lacing could be easily done with a squire.

I'll have to dig a bit, but I had a picture or two that showed a plate cuirass that looked like it was hinged on the sides and opened in the back. It caught my eye for two reasons, one, it seemed exceedingly rare, and two, there is a design of samurai armor the same way.

Hey guys -

Bob Charette showed me photos he took of a "double-breasted" mail shirt in Musee de L'Armee in Paris.  The label says its Nuremburg work from c1350.

It overlapped in the front what looked about a foot, and hooked closed.  So, in fact, rather than being "exposed" in the front, you were double-protected! 

It also had a "tail" that pulled up between the legs and hooked before and above the groin, providing protection to that area simply and comfortably.

Cut away, say I!

Jess

Wow! Now *that* sounds like a very unique piece. Long before I saw any "mail braies", either.

Very interesting find on maille. Hmmmm. Overlapping maille as opposed to layers of protection that only came from fabric/linen in combination w/ leather, scales, plates, etc. Very nice to know historically.

[Sir William]

I'm used to the maille dance by now.  Think I'll leave my hauberk alone...but will be watching to see what you gents come up with should you decide to go this route.

[Sir James A]

Found a few interesting pictures of museum pieces while doing some more research:



Fauld clasp, and seems to be a half "mail brayette", too



This one, I'm a little suspect ... I don't know if the pieces were originally together, but if so, interesting to note the size of the neck opening since the mantle of the coif covers so much area too. Why this style instead of the hauberk with integral coif? I don't know...




Two shots of the same thing - the neck clasps. Am I looking at this right? It looks like there's actually a buckle on each side of the collar. I'm thinking that a single leather strap would go through both of the buckles, to keep the collar upright/closed. Thoughts??



Another neck clasp.



Just a good picture showing a single garment of multiple-sized rings - small, tightly woven rings of a mail mantle/standard. The small, tightly spaced rings give it some rigidity, and was somewhat of a precursor to plate, sacrificing the flexibility and taking more weight and better protection instead.

[Sir William]

This is very cool...I love seeing real examples of medieval maille.  I get the impression that what we have on offer commercially speaking is not on par.

[Sir James A]

I posted this over on AA too, and got a reply from Robert MacPherson.

I think I can see the second buckle (on the wearer's right), but it doesn't match the more obvious one on the wearer's left; and neither of them is as nice as the hook clasp. I suspect that both buckles are replacements, and that the collar originally had a second hook clasp.

I know of no other examples of straps being secured with a buckle at both ends. It seems like a way to lose your strap. On the other hand riveting the strap directly to mail is not uncommon. I have riveted leather straps to mail, and have not found any trouble.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=155769

There are a bunch of good posts there, which I won't copy and paste here, but in short - multiple historical examples of mail closed with straps and buckles. And of all things, the Churburg harness, which is one of the most widely copied / reproduced styles, even has a bunch of ties on the fauld that hold it closed. How did that never click for me???

http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?s=63bfd2bcc112e1aac516eea644588028&app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=7321

So, I think going with buckled or tied mail is historically accurate, at least in certain circumstances. Huzzah!! Guess I'll be doing more mail work than I thought over the winter....

[Ian]

I really like what I see on that example in Cleveland. I may just do that to my haubergeon to make it a little more manageable and get a tighter more close-fitting garment.  Good stuff Sir James!

[Sir Edward]

Fantastic! So that's a 14th century precedent? Nice!

[Sir James A]

Yeah, that was just a couple people with links to historical examples too. With more time, it might get some more examples / links. After splitting my hauberk, I really, really wondered why they wouldn't have done the same thing historically, at least sometimes - I mean for them, it wasn't "splitting" a hauberk - it was just leaving the front open. I'm curious how the straps riveted to mail will work; I'm thinking leather on both sides, and a longer than usual rivet. I'll post a thread if I get around to doing it.

[Allan Senefelder]

Theres a shirt here in my town which i've viewed and handled personally which while not split fully has a deep V opeing at the neck with a flap of riveted mail that spans the V when on and is secured by hooks which simply hook into rings of the shirt chest. It belongs to a young man who used to work with me ( he's a little bent at me over politics right at the moment ) back when he was a teenager. When I met him he had spent several month the previous summer at an uncles manor in Ireland and the shirt turned up in a really old trunk the uncle was unaware of in the attic ( as I recall the manor is 17th century ). It is waist length with T shirt length sleeves. The rings graduate from thicker wire around the neck, shoulders and center chest to thinner twords the lower abdomen and especially the sleeves. The graduation is such that it is visible at say 4-5 feet. I've encountered this graduated wire thickness in European, eastern European and occasionally Turkish mail but never in ethnographic mails like Indo-Persia, Arab or SE Asian. It has a short collar that is of the same ring diameter. Based on my hands on assement I placed the shirt in the later 15th or 16th century and am confident of a European origin. I have seen the hook through mail closure method several times before and at one time copied it when butted mail still sold and it is quite secure ( at least as a method for securing a flap to cover a larger V neck to allow the head into the shirt and then close the neck up with a close fitting collar and cover the V opening ).