John Clement, not being knightly.... again.

[Sir Wolf]

[Sir William]

The fat kid vid was pretty cool, actually.  That other flourish video, was that really Clements?

[Sir Edward]

The fat kid vid was pretty cool, actually.  That other flourish video, was that really Clements?

Yep, that was JC. I have no idea who edited it together though.

[Hrolfr]

If someone needs to tear someone else down in order to feel better about themselves, they are a 't**d in a punchbowl'.

vs.

I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules 
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).

Isn't that the same thing?

What purpose would John Clements fighting anyone with BotN rules serve?  BotN and Armored Combat League have virtually nothing to do with the historical technique of Liechtenauer or Fiore, or anything from our past for that matter.  It's just a brawl in armor using swords as clubs.  Sure it's a tough sport, and cool to watch, but it has nothing to do with the techniques people like John Clements, Greg Mele, Christian Tobler etc are interested in reviving.  You just want to see someone get beat up, isn't that the same as bringing someone else down to feel better about oneself? 

John Clements can be very abrasive.  That's his personality, but to pretend like he's not a good swordsman is denying a fact staring everyone in the face.  He just seems to be the guy who likes to take his ball and go home if others don't see things his way, but his accomplishments in the world of historical swordsmanship cannot be overlooked.

Sir Ian, does anyone alive actually know what medival combat was actually like? 

I would have a tendency to believe that (other than tournies) combat was much more like BotN than Liechtenauer or Fiore.  The latter two  more likely were in closely monitored situations (ie judical combat, tournies and the like) while on the actual warfield, I wonder if it would be an advantage.

As for your response of You just want to see someone get beat up, isn't that the same as bringing someone else down to feel better about oneself?   I was just curious which style would prevail.  I used Nissan as an example because of my experience against him, I coould have easily used several other members whom I know and have fought both SCA singles and melees with and against.

I apologize if you read ill intent into my post.

[Hrolfr]

don't see anyone clamoring for other HEMA/WMA teachers to go fight people.  It's just fun to pile on and hate the 'bad boy' of WMA.  I see a lot of hypocrisy within WMA with regards to how ARMA is treated.  People get mad at Clements for so vociferously defending his own opinions on techniques by doing the same about their own... And Clements isn't going around saying he can beat every other school in a sword fight, so why is the burden of proof to be laid upon his head?  I don't see people yelling and screaming for Christian Tobler to go fight someone to prove what he teaches, or anyone else for that matter.

Because Tobler, Mondescheim, Charon etal, are not like Clements.    I know Bob Charon personally and the others by words and deeds.

Clements track record proves  his 'likeability'.

Or to quote someone "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig"
(and no, I am not calling Clements a pig, I am alliterating to the fact that no matter how well you dress something up, it is still true to it's base,)

[Ian]

I'll have to re-read the accounts of deeds like the Combat of the Thirty, but from what I remember, they didn't sound like the BotN brawls.  But yes, people like Froissart have written accounts of actual battles and tournaments, so we do have an idea of what real medieval combat was like.

I just find it amusing that people constantly call out Clements for not being knightly or chivalrous or this or that and hurling all kinds of insults his way.  Is that knightly, or chivalrous to do?  Pot, this is kettle....  Besides, why does Clements have to be knightly or chivalrous?  Is he claiming to be a Knight?  No, he's a martial arts teacher and historical researcher, and he's damn good at it.

Whether you like him or not, he's done more to bring HEMA/WMA to the public's mind than anyone, if just by virtue of him being on TV all the time unlike any of the other's mentioned.  People like Dr. Sydney Anglo don't back ARMA because it's a den of iniquity like so many pretend.  I have the utmost respect for all of the gentlemen mentioned in this thread, but I also have a tremendous amount of respect for John Clements and I find it tiresome that people constantly feel the need to go out of their way to bash him, when a lot of people probably wouldn't have ever even gotten the spark to be interested in HEMA/WMA if it wasn't for his efforts in the first place, be it directly as some in this thread have accounted, or indirectly by him getting the word out.

In fact, you can even take it a step further and be thankful that he comes off so abrasive sometimes, because it sparks actual discussion on technique.  And that is useful!  If people are just constantly avoiding conflict, you wind up with stagnation.  I'm willing to be his thoughts on the krumphau alone have caused hundreds of other HEMA organizations to at least scrutinize what they were doing and really think it through, and we need that kind of thought in the art.

[Sir James A]

I'll have to re-read the accounts of deeds like the Combat of the Thirty, but from what I remember, they didn't sound like the BotN brawls.

Either way, it's a once-a-year tournament (I think), and it represents a very very tiny fraction of the overall SCA group, in a tournament far different from their usual. Can't take that one tournament and extrapolate it to the rest of the SCA, just like we don't take the Tournament of the Phoenix joust by Jeffrey Hedgecock to be equivalent to the renn-fest jousts.

Besides, why does Clements have to be knightly or chivalrous?  Is he claiming to be a Knight?  No, he's a martial arts teacher and historical researcher, and he's damn good at it.

Sir Ian, you've pretty much nailed it. That hadn't crossed my mind. People can tell me I'm not a fire truck, and if I haven't said I'm a fire truck ... why does it matter? Brilliant!

I have the utmost respect for all of the gentlemen mentioned in this thread, but I also have a tremendous amount of respect for John Clements and I find it tiresome that people constantly feel the need to go out of their way to bash him, when a lot of people probably wouldn't have ever even gotten the spark to be interested in HEMA/WMA if it wasn't for his efforts in the first place, be it directly as some in this thread have accounted, or indirectly by him getting the word out.

Agreed. I've met him, and he wasn't a jerk. The only thing that came off harsh was the "ARMA members only" part, and the "don't talk to others" part. But that's ARMA rules, and Clements *himself* was a nice guy.

Here's a recent video of his:



He shows techniques I haven't seen anywhere else, he's dynamic with his presentation, his students are paying attention and, dare I say, even having fun. And a couple times, he asks if they're okay after showing techniques, and helps them up off the ground a few times. What a douche, right?

[Ian]

Sir James, I meant the real Combat of the Thirty, not the SCA re-creation.

Three accounts of the historical deed can be read in Freelance's reader here:
http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/combatofthethirty.aspx

[Hrolfr]

I'll have to re-read the accounts of deeds like the Combat of the Thirty, but from what I remember, they didn't sound like the BotN brawls.  But yes, people like Froissart have written accounts of actual battles and tournaments, so we do have an idea of what real medieval combat was like.

CotT was not a battle, but a contencious tourney.
Agincourt
Lake Pepius
Vienna
Stamford Bridge

They were battles

I just find it amusing that people constantly call out Clements for not being knightly or chivalrous or this or that and hurling all kinds of insults his way.  Is that knightly, or chivalrous to do?  Pot, this is kettle....  Besides, why does Clements have to be knightly or chivalrous?  Is he claiming to be a Knight?  No, he's a martial arts teacher and historical researcher, and he's damn good at it.

I did not "call him out"  nor do I consider him "knightly' nor "chivalrous".

I find him to be a pompous ass, who may be able to kick mine, but a pompous ass anyway.

Mordred was a knight and a king, but was in no way knightly, nor chivalrous

Whether you like him or not, he's done more to bring HEMA/WMA to the public's mind than anyone, if just by virtue of him being on TV all the time unlike any of the other's mentioned.  People like Dr. Sydney Anglo don't back ARMA because it's a den of iniquity like so many pretend.  I have the utmost respect for all of the gentlemen mentioned in this thread, but I also have a tremendous amount of respect for John Clements and I find it tiresome that people constantly feel the need to go out of their way to bash him, when a lot of people probably wouldn't have ever even gotten the spark to be interested in HEMA/WMA if it wasn't for his efforts in the first place, be it directly as some in this thread have accounted, or indirectly by him getting the word out.

So, bad 'pub' is the same as good 'pub'?  His attitude may have driven away as many if not more  people interested in this.

In fact, you can even take it a step further and be thankful that he comes off so abrasive sometimes, because it sparks actual discussion on technique.  And that is useful!  If people are just constantly avoiding conflict, you wind up with stagnation.  I'm willing to be his thoughts on the krumphau alone have caused hundreds of other HEMA organizations to at least scrutinize what they were doing and really think it through, and we need that kind of thought in the art.

I will leave you to your choice.  I have (for the better part of a decade) to find him an ass. 

I choose to leave him as such.

[Ian]

CotT was not a battle, but a contencious tourney.
Agincourt
Lake Pepius
Vienna
Stamford Bridge

They were battles

Precisely why I brought up Froissart and his contemporaries after mentioning CoTT, thanks for reinforcing my point.

I did not "call him out"  nor do I consider him "knightly' nor "chivalrous".

I find him to be a pompous ass, who may be able to kick mine, but a pompous ass anyway.

That's great, I'm responding to the title of this entire thread and the sentiment it carries.

So, bad 'pub' is the same as good 'pub'?  His attitude may have driven away as many if not more  people interested in this.

What bad publicity?  His only bad publicity is inside the circles of HEMA that the public doesn't see anyway.  He doesn't do bad publicity for his television interviews.  The public has no idea about his reputation.  They see him in things like Medieval Fight Book and Reclaiming the Blade, and he's not the monster others make him out to be in those.  His actual mainstream publicity is quite tame and informative.  That's what I was referring to.  You're injecting his reputation in the HEMA world specifically in to what the public sees of him, and the fact of the matter is they don't see that stuff.  The public interacts with John Clements the way Sir James did, by taking an introductory class.  They don't see internet flame wars about how much pomposity he may or may not have.  That's why I said he's done so much for putting HEMA in the minds of the public in a positive way.  People just want to hate him and give him no credit for all the good he's done, and you're showing it.

I did not "call him out"...".

I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules 
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).

You didn't?

[Sir Brian]

A lot of great points being discussed here and I am neither a fan nor a foe of JC yet I do acknowledge and applaud his contributions to illuminating HEMA/WMA to the masses in which his gregarious and impassioned presentation is nigh incomparable. Yet it is very apparent that he has always cultivated and steadfastly maintained his isolationistic aura. He has either produced and/or promoted the good the bad and the ugly in concepts, interpretations and controversial demonstrations, like this one discussed here: http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,208.0.html

So I suppose he will always be an enigma to me unless I he happens to open an ARMA academy near me and allows me to join/train I suppose I will continue to consider him a brilliant crackpot! 

[Hrolfr]

CotT was not a battle, but a contencious tourney.
Agincourt
Lake Pepius
Vienna
Stamford Bridge

They were battles

Precisely why I brought up Froissart and his contemporaries after mentioning CoTT, thanks for reinforcing my point.

I did not "call him out"  nor do I consider him "knightly' nor "chivalrous".

I find him to be a pompous ass, who may be able to kick mine, but a pompous ass anyway.

That's great, I'm responding to the title of this entire thread and the sentiment it carries.

So, bad 'pub' is the same as good 'pub'?  His attitude may have driven away as many if not more  people interested in this.

What bad publicity?  His only bad publicity is inside the circles of HEMA that the public doesn't see anyway.  He doesn't do bad publicity for his television interviews.  The public has no idea about his reputation.  They see him in things like Medieval Fight Book and Reclaiming the Blade, and he's not the monster others make him out to be in those.  His actual mainstream publicity is quite tame and informative.  That's what I was referring to.  You're injecting his reputation in the HEMA world specifically in to what the public sees of him, and the fact of the matter is they don't see that stuff.  The public interacts with John Clements the way Sir James did, by taking an introductory class.  They don't see internet flame wars about how much pomposity he may or may not have.  That's why I said he's done so much for putting HEMA in the minds of the public in a positive way.  People just want to hate him and give him no credit for all the good he's done, and you're showing it.

I did not "call him out"...".

I would really like to see Clements fight Nissan with BotN rules 
(and yeah, I have fought against and with Nissan in both melee and singles).

You didn't?

don't see anyone clamoring for other HEMA/WMA teachers to go fight people.  It's just fun to pile on and hate the 'bad boy' of WMA.  I see a lot of hypocrisy within WMA with regards to how ARMA is treated.  People get mad at Clements for so vociferously defending his own opinions on techniques by doing the same about their own... And Clements isn't going around saying he can beat every other school in a sword fight, so why is the burden of proof to be laid upon his head?  I don't see people yelling and screaming for Christian Tobler to go fight someone to prove what he teaches, or anyone else for that matter.

Because Tobler, Mondescheim, Charon etal, are not like Clements.    I know Bob Charon personally and the others by words and deeds.

Clements track record proves  his 'likeability'.

Or to quote someone "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig"
(and no, I am not calling Clements a pig, I am alliterating to the fact that no matter how well you dress something up, it is still true to it's base,)

From above.

Appearantly, you are a Clements fan, so no matter what I say or present will not be 'good enough'.

HMMMMM, kinda like John himself.

Make your own observation from my comment.

[Ian]

Ah, so now begin the personal accusations, I'd prefer if you could respond to the points instead, but that's fine. I am a John Clements fan, I'm also equally a Christian Tobler fan, a Greg Mele fan, a Bill Grandy fan et all... I am a fan of anyone who contributes to the world of HEMA and WMA, and the chivalric arts in general, so yeah, you got me!  I would defend any of those men just the same as I would John Clements.

[Hrolfr]

Ah, so now begin the personal accusations, I'd prefer if you could respond to the points instead, but that's fine. I am a John Clements fan, I'm also equally a Christian Tobler fan, a Greg Mele fan, a Bill Grandy fan et all... I am a fan of anyone who contributes to the world of HEMA and WMA, and the chivalric arts in general, so yeah, you got me!  I would defend any of those men just the same as I would John Clements.

I try to be a good example to my 10 and 12 y/o children.
John Clements  is not to them.

'Nuff said

[Sir James A]

Ah, so now begin the personal accusations, I'd prefer if you could respond to the points instead, but that's fine. I am a John Clements fan, I'm also equally a Christian Tobler fan, a Greg Mele fan, a Bill Grandy fan et all... I am a fan of anyone who contributes to the world of HEMA and WMA, and the chivalric arts in general, so yeah, you got me!  I would defend any of those men just the same as I would John Clements.

I'd like to point out that being a fan of John Clements and anyone (or everyone) else in WMA/HEMA are not mutually exclusive.

Did anyone watch the video I posted?