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Cased greaves & Sabatons
Sir James A:
--- Quote from: Sir William on 2012-05-31, 18:13:56 ---
--- Quote from: James Anderson III on 2012-05-31, 03:05:23 ---
--- Quote from: Sir William on 2012-05-30, 18:16:22 ---
--- Quote from: James Anderson III on 2012-05-25, 18:28:59 ---They did have chairs and they did sit back in the middle ages. Knights would ride places on horseback rather than in a car, but still, seated.
--- End quote ---
Not to pick, but there's a marked difference between riding horseback and riding in a car...last time I rode I was sweating rather profusely- a combination of a fairly warm day (80s temp) and the fact that it is a bit of a workout, especially in the core (unless you ride like a sack of potatoes lol) and the inner thighs.
That's why they had to tie down anything that couldn't keep up on the horse- sacks of grain and prisoners included. ;)
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Oh, absolutely, I agree with you. I was going towards most of the surviving cased greaves we have, being for people with very slim calves. We're not sure if that was because those muscles were under-developed from riding so much (not walking), or if they were somehow strong but slim. The cardio exercise you'd get from walking would be more than riding. Not to say they had it easy; just that it was easier riding than walking and that their muscles wouldn't be as developed as they would be if they walked everywhere. Like we joked at VARF - it's not so hard to be in full harness when the horse is moving the weight around. :)
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You've a point there...because fighting on foot wasn't something they would've practiced or indulged in had they had a choice. What about the upper body, have you noticed if they were especially large up top, Sir James?
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That one is a whole other can of worms, since the breastplate and backplate on the large majority of armors was separate, and can fit quite a range of girths. The primary exception is the late italian cuirass. The cased greaves are almost like a "metal cast" of the calves.
Joshua Santana:
--- Quote --- They did have chairs and they did sit back in the middle ages. Knights would ride places on horseback rather than in a car, but still, seated.
Not to pick, but there's a marked difference between riding horseback and riding in a car...last time I rode I was sweating rather profusely- a combination of a fairly warm day (80s temp) and the fact that it is a bit of a workout, especially in the core (unless you ride like a sack of potatoes lol) and the inner thighs.
That's why they had to tie down anything that couldn't keep up on the horse- sacks of grain and prisoners included. ;)
Oh, absolutely, I agree with you. I was going towards most of the surviving cased greaves we have, being for people with very slim calves. We're not sure if that was because those muscles were under-developed from riding so much (not walking), or if they were somehow strong but slim. The cardio exercise you'd get from walking would be more than riding. Not to say they had it easy; just that it was easier riding than walking and that their muscles wouldn't be as developed as they would be if they walked everywhere. Like we joked at VARF - it's not so hard to be in full harness when the horse is moving the weight around. :)
You've a point there...because fighting on foot wasn't something they would've practiced or indulged in had they had a choice. What about the upper body, have you noticed if they were especially large up top, Sir James?
That one is a whole other can of worms, since the breastplate and backplate on the large majority of armors was separate, and can fit quite a range of girths. The primary exception is the late italian cuirass. The cased greaves are almost like a "metal cast" of the calves.
--- End quote ---
There you go. ;)
Ian:
--- Quote from: James Anderson III on 2012-05-31, 03:05:23 ---Oh, absolutely, I agree with you. I was going towards most of the surviving cased greaves we have, being for people with very slim calves. We're not sure if that was because those muscles were under-developed from riding so much (not walking), or if they were somehow strong but slim. The cardio exercise you'd get from walking would be more than riding. Not to say they had it easy; just that it was easier riding than walking and that their muscles wouldn't be as developed as they would be if they walked everywhere. Like we joked at VARF - it's not so hard to be in full harness when the horse is moving the weight around. :)
--- End quote ---
Slim calves in no way means under-developed calves. Look at any distance runner, and any number of endurance athletes. They generally have very slender calf muscles. You'd be hard pressed to call their calves under-conditioned. Unless knights were routinely doing toe raises in their armor as part of their training, it's not really surprising that many could have had slender calf muscles while not being atrophied from never walking around. In fact, walking around doesn't develop your calves size either. Unless you're genetically predisposed to large calves, the only way to make your calves big is to do high-resistance training targeting them specifically, or specialize in sprinting. You could walk 100 miles a day and not get big calves.
Here are my cased greaves before being polished. As you can see, they just about are as Ivan described, metal casts of my leg. My calves are also pretty slim, but the shaping of the greaves prevents them from putting any real weight on the top of my foot. Even with slender calves, the shaping of the metal allows the weight to rest on the muscle and over the surface area of the lower leg.
Joshua Santana:
--- Quote ---Here are my cased greaves before being polished. As you can see, they just about are as Ivan described, metal casts of my leg. My calves are also pretty slim, but the shaping of the greaves prevents them from putting any real weight on the top of my foot. Even with slender calves, the shaping of the metal allows the weight to rest on the muscle and over the surface area of the lower leg.
--- End quote ---
There you go, that is why you need the greave measurements correct or else pain and discomfort will ensue.
SirNathanQ:
Gah, perfectly shaped greaves! They exist! :o
But concerning knights fighting on foot, that actually was a faily common occurrence. The Germans were poked fun at by the French (bad decision that, poking fun at Germans ;)) for their propensity to dismount in times of Crisis as early as the 13th century, and by the early 14th, the English commonly dismounted their knights, only keeping a mounted reserve. By the mid 14th century, even the French were trying it out. Knights fighting dismounted wasn't uncommon at all. :)
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