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Cased greaves & Sabatons

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Sir James A:
Ian, thanks for the insight. Full harness seems to be an odd duck; while I agree a marathon runner with slim calves would certainly not be out of shape, I do wonder how long they would be mobile in harness with all the extra weight. And if they were moving about in that weight, wouldn't it increase the size of their calves at least somewhat? They could have slim calves but be considerably strong; comparing bodybuilders to some of the "world's strongest X" and the "tough man" competitions, some of the most ridiculously strong and brute-force guys have a very moderate build compared to a "body builder" - so I try not to equate mass with power - there's some correlation, but it's not the end-all, be-all.

Anyways, I mentioned the 'metal cast' (not Ivan), since it's the closest way I could think to describe them. It seems paradoxical, but I'm finding with large calves - or rather, a large variance between calf & ankle circumference - that the weight of the greave really *needs* to sit over top of the foot to allow slight play at the calf, or I can't kneel / kick / hop around comfortably and with full range of motion. For reference, my calf is 16.5" (sadly, it's shrank a bit), and my ankle is 9.5". That's with no exercising. When I was active and in shape, my calf was 18", nearly double my ankle.

The large difference in measurements like that makes it really uncomfortable for the back of the greave to be perfectly fitted to my leg; I keep it as tight as possible against the front (as you could probably guess from my armor bite photos), and let the back have a bit more play. This lets my calf "flex" up and down my leg as I squat / kick / move about. If the back plate is resting on my calf for support, to keep it off the front of my foot, it's horribly uncomfortable on my calf to do any movements that cause my calf muscle to move - I'm literally pressing my muscle up against the steel. With the weight from the greaves supported by the sabatons, and 'separated' by sitting on the spur straps, it's completely comfortable.

I can't find a decent picture online, but very very late period greaves were sometimes solid from the demi-greave down to the bottom of the foot. I don't know if that's to keep the weight over top of the feet like I'm doing, because they were worn on horseback and the stirrups would be taking the weight, or some other reason.

I think the smaller calves makes it easier to wear greaves since there's not as much muscle mass moving around, and tightly fitted armor can be self-supporting without being restrictive. If I just had schynbalds, I don't think they would need to sit on my feet at all. It's the motion of the large calf muscle that complicates it for me.

(Sir Edward - can we get a topic split to something like 'Cased greaves & Sabatons' with some of these posts? I've derailed this thread rather far. :( )

Sir Edward:

--- Quote from: James Anderson III on 2012-06-03, 02:23:43 ---(Sir Edward - can we get a topic split to something like 'Cased greaves & Sabatons' with some of these posts? I've derailed this thread rather far. :( )

--- End quote ---

Done.,

Ian:
I find no problem with mobility in fully cased greaves.  I used to, but I don't anymore.  If you observe the body mechanics of kneeling / kicking / hopping, etc... the calf doesn't change shape all that much.  If you go watch a youtube video of a Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman (Mr. Olympia pro body builders) workout calves, you can see that even guys with stupidly muscular calves don't change shape dramatically when flexed.  The bottom of the muscle is drawn up higher in to the leg as it tightens and you can see the separation of the two heads of the calf.  But the shape change is not so dramatic that it won't fit in your closely fitted greaves anymore if shaped properly.  I really think it comes down to the shaping of the greaves themselves.  If the greaves are not properly shaped, they won't function correctly.

I mentioned above I used to have the same problem but don't anymore.  I don't want this to be misconstrued as an attack on anyone, but my original pair of greaves were the merctailor offering.  They are simply not shaped appropriately to function seamlessly with harness as a greave should.  The only way to allow mobility was to wear them so they sat on the top of my foot, or they would restrict function.  With weight on top of my foot all they did was add to fatigue and made walking around rather uncomfortable.

When I upgraded to cased greaves made to actual casts of my legs, the change of was night and day.  I practically forget I have them on.  When I got my quotes from Jeff Wasson, I was ignorant about the amount of time and skill required to properly shape greaves and came to find out that they were more expensive and more difficult to make than any other piece of armor I ordered from him.  He explained that the fit needs to be really spot on to function properly, and for that, they must be shaped as close as possible to match the contour of your leg.  Basically, unless someone else has doppleganger legs of yours, your greaves will not function as well on them, and they will experience compromised mobility or comfort issues.

Sir Edward:

Yes, that's the thing people often don't realize about cased greaves. The fit requires so much precision that you really can't make an off-the-rack option that will fit anyone properly.

I remember walking by one of the armorers at Pennsic and saw a sample set hanging in their booth, and I asked what they charge. They said $1500 and clearly expected me to scoff at it. I said "that sounds about right".

I'm not sure what Jeff Wasson charges for them. I'd be curious to find out, since properly fitting greaves (and sabatons) is something I'd really like to get at some point. That's the one thing I completely neglect currently in my 15th century kit.

Sir William:
Well...sounds like I need a pair myself!

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