Leg Shots. A Question.

[Ian]

I want to see John Clements duel Paul of Belatrix, Gemini de Grendel, Marc de Arundel, or Radnor of Guildemar just once HEMA style at full speed & at least 1/2 power.... and I want to film it.

Duke Paul has a greatsword shot to the leg that rolls into a block for the opponents return that he gets to work against Duke Radnor. See what JC says then no?

I don't know, I think this is a bit like the old, who would win in a fight, pirates or ninjas thing...   I'm not trying to say one system or group of fighters is better than the other, but SCA heavy and HEMA techniques when truly examined closely, do not translate well.  SCA Heavy has evolved independently into its own sport and set of rules and techniques, that while looking like historic swordplay to an onlooker, it shares little with the treatises and texts of actual historical sword technique.  Wrap shots for example... I'm not a big JC hater, although I agree, the Cult of Clements phenomenon is strange, and not very productive to the WMA / HEMA community at large, but if you've seen the man in freeplay, he's one hell of a swordsman.  I honestly think with someone of JC's skill level, who's dedicated his life to practicing his interpretation of the historical source documents, that trying to hit him in the leg would be a waste of effort and a poor decision on the part of his opponent.  You're suggesting taking people at the top of their game and throwing them into a different game and expecting them to be at the top.  The fact of the matter is, they're two very different games.  It's apples and oranges.

I'm not trying to offend SCA heavies out there.  Conversely, I don't think JC would be any good if you restricted him to the SCA rules and made him fight the folks you mentioned above.  But let's be reasonable about JC's talent as a HEMA swordsman, even though it's very fashionable to hate his strong personality and inability to play well with others at times.

[SirNathanQ]

Well yeah JC is a hell of a swordsman. Anyone's got to give him that. ARMA's got a lot that they could contribute, JC especially. I'm mostly saddened more than angry about the whole thing.

I have to agree with Sir Ian on this one. Two different games, two different systems. And then you throw in historical armoured fighting, which is another different ball game from either of them!   

[Thorsteinn]

I believe my point has been missed.

I chose 4 people I know and whom I know are great. Also all four have great fighting skills beyond the SCA Tourney Field.

Paul is a 3rd dan in Judo, studied HEMA, & competed in Judo;
Gemini has at least one belt in Kung Fu, competed in Kung Fu & WMA, and owns Knights Quest in Turlock, CA;
Marc de Arundel started in german WMA;
Radnor started in the SCA but has gone on to study anything he can get his grubby paws on. He has one of the best grasp's of body mechanics I have ever seen.

All are Knights in the SCA and all have won Crowns & Coronets. Between them the have reigned at least 12 times.

If I were to pick someone to go up against John C. in his own game & show what can be done if you know how (IE get those low percentage shots to work) then I would have to pick someone who has the right skill & renown to face him. Someone(s) who have a proven track record of not picking gimme fights and answering challenges to their skill.

3 of the above 4 men have free online instructional pages and would be willing to teach whom ever asked for free. I know that Gemini & Mari will be coming up to Reno on their Knights Errant instructional tour this April.

If I were to see someone fight JC who had the capacity to beat him at his own game I would see to it that this person was above reproach so that when I filmed the bout he could not complain.

-Ivan

[Sir James A]

For the record, I have a huge beef with the way that Clements decides to interact with the WMA community, and what he requires from his students. Still, opinions aside, I did take a class with him before, and he is a very enthusiastic, thorough, and skilled teacher. If it weren't for the huge difference in philosophy between us, I would have considered going further with ARMA because I enjoyed him that much as a teacher.

I believe my point has been missed.

I chose 4 people I know and whom I know are great. Also all four have great fighting skills beyond the SCA Tourney Field.

Paul is a 3rd dan in Judo, studied HEMA, & competed in Judo;
Gemini has at least one belt in Kung Fu, competed in Kung Fu & WMA, and owns Knights Quest in Turlock, CA;
Marc de Arundel started in german WMA;
Radnor started in the SCA but has gone on to study anything he can get his grubby paws on. He has one of the best grasp's of body mechanics I have ever seen.

You're suggesting taking people at the top of their game and throwing them into a different game and expecting them to be at the top.  The fact of the matter is, they're two very different games.  It's apples and oranges.

Apples and badgers, I'd say. Paul isn't going to go throwing people around in the SCA like he would in judo. Gemini won't be using kung fu falcon punches in SCA. Skill at other martial arts is a good way to "balance" someone and broaden a skill set, but when you're in a game where the rule sets dictate what you can and cannot do, and the things you cannot do are things you are skilled at, it changes things. It's not an "anything goes, winner is who lives" battle; that would change things considerably.

I'd put my money on Mike Tyson in a boxing match vs Bruce Lee; I'd put my money on Lee over Tyson in a martial arts battle. Likewise, in a WMA bout, I'd put my money on John Clements. On the other hand, I'd put my money on Paul in a judo bout vs Clements; I'd put my money on Gemini in a kung fu bout vs Clements; and I'd put my money on Paul and Gemini in a SCA battle vs Clements. They may not win *every* bout of their "specialty", but statistically, they should win more than lose.

That is *not* to discount each person's individual skill sets. It's what skills are relevant to the competition, and which aren't. It boils down to the question of : If someone has dedicated their whole life and training to only *one* "game" (WMA, SCA, Judo, Karate, Ninjitsu - whatever) - how does someone who is highly skilled at a different game defeat the person with the laser-focus on their one and only game? It's like near the end of A Knights Tale, when Adhemar asks "How would you beat him?" (in reference to William) and the reply is "With a stick. While he slept. But on a horse, with a lance? That man is unbeatable."

[SirNathanQ]

Perfect quote, Sir James! I was thinking of that one for this scenario.

But really, the only fair way to go about this would be to create a realistic combat sitution which incorporates the most relevant parts of each system.

As to decidig just what the heck that would be, I'll leave that miserable biusiness to more qualified people.
 *Sound of several cans of worms opening at once*

[Joshua Santana]

For the record, I have a huge beef with the way that Clements decides to interact with the WMA community, and what he requires from his students. Still, opinions aside, I did take a class with him before, and he is a very enthusiastic, thorough, and skilled teacher. If it weren't for the huge difference in philosophy between us, I would have considered going further with ARMA because I enjoyed him that much as a teacher.

I sympathize with with Sir James, for there is a ARMA Study Group 15 minutes away from my place.  I would love to train with these guys if not for the fact that the membership is exculsive and appears elitist from the "cult of Clements" mentality.  I thank Heaven for training with SIGMA!

Paul isn't going to go throwing people around in the SCA like he would in judo. Gemini won't be using kung fu falcon punches in SCA. Skill at other martial arts is a good way to "balance" someone and broaden a skill set, but when you're in a game where the rule sets dictate what you can and cannot do, and the things you cannot do are things you are skilled at, it changes things. It's not an "anything goes, winner is who lives" battle; that would change things considerably.

That is *not* to discount each person's individual skill sets. It's what skills are relevant to the competition, and which aren't. It boils down to the question of : If someone has dedicated their whole life and training to only *one* "game" (WMA, SCA, Judo, Karate, Ninjitsu - whatever) - how does someone who is highly skilled at a different game defeat the person with the laser-focus on their one and only game? It's like near the end of A Knights Tale, when Adhemar asks "How would you beat him?" (in reference to William) and the reply is "With a stick. While he slept. But on a horse, with a lance? That man is unbeatable."

But really, the only fair way to go about this would be to create a realistic combat sitution which incorporates the most relevant parts of each system.

I agree, different situations would require different fighting skills.  However certain skills can transcribe over to different scenarios depending on what the opponent throws at you.  Best example of this is wrestling at the sword and durchlaufen ("running through") which utilizes wrestling at close range.  However different fighters will fight differently either by their specialized skill(s) or by rules of competition.   

[Thorsteinn]

A good system that incorporates lots of each but all of none?...

I got it!

They could compete in the Lauren Tournament!

-Ivan