Trial by combat

[Sir Wolf]

at least KOH had riveted mail

[Das Bill]

And also there is the Einvigi (informal, almost no rules) and the Holmganga (formal, several rules). There is a quote somewhere that says, to effect, that an inexperienced warrior may have an easier time in the Einvigi than the Holmganga as they will have less to worry about even though they are in greater danger.

Only if you're doing time travel. You're talking about cultures that are half a millenia apart. The laws, weapons, culture and context are all very different between 13th century Scandanavia and 18th century Scotland.

In the 18th century, doing something akin to the Holmganga would be the equivalent to modern gang members putting on pantyhose and licking their palms while knife fighting... in other words, everyone would wonder, "What the hell are they doing? Someone call the police." And doing something akin to the Einvigi in the 18th century would have gotten you thrown in prison or even executed for murder.

[Thorsteinn]

Only if you're doing time travel. You're talking about cultures that are half a millenia apart. The laws, weapons, culture and context are all very different between 13th century Scandanavia and 18th century Scotland.

In the 18th century, doing something akin to the Holmganga would be the equivalent to modern gang members putting on pantyhose and licking their palms while knife fighting... in other words, everyone would wonder, "What the hell are they doing? Someone call the police." And doing something akin to the Einvigi in the 18th century would have gotten you thrown in prison or even executed for murder.

That is a distinction of method but not style nor motivation relative to the cultures of the time.

Even in the 18th century did you have informal and formal duels. Think of the one that was both that Abraham Lincoln fought a century later than Rob Roy.

[Das Bill]

That is a distinction of method but not style nor motivation relative to the cultures of the time.

It's all of the above. If you're saying that informal and formal duels happened in the 18th century, then yes, I agree with you. (though informal duels were technically illegal) If you're saying the Einvigi and the Holmganga were done, then I can't agree, because those had their own sets of customs, and they had their own cultural connotations for their own period half a millenia earlier. We can't lump all of history together and assume everything applies to all occassions. Trial by combat changed quite a bit throughout history.

[Sir James A]

What comes to my mind whenever I hear "rapier vs broadsword/longsword":


(jump to 1:05 - or watch the whole thing - it's hilarious in it's disregard for safety)

Das Bill, I had no idea that dissimilar weapons were used in historical context for dueling. Neat!

[Das Bill]

Das Bill, I had no idea that dissimilar weapons were used in historical context for dueling. Neat!

Well, remember, they aren't dissimilar weapons by period definitions. They are both single handed, double edged swords that can both cut and thrust. As long as one isn't gigantically longer than the other, they would be considered the same thing. Also, keep in mind, in many cases the definition of the word "rapier" had more to do with the hilt than the blade... I own an antique rapier where, if you put a baskethilt on it, no one would think anything weird of it.

[Sir William]

What comes to my mind whenever I hear "rapier vs broadsword/longsword":


(jump to 1:05 - or watch the whole thing - it's hilarious in it's disregard for safety)

Das Bill, I had no idea that dissimilar weapons were used in historical context for dueling. Neat!

LMAO @ Tosh.0 - I think it was you guys that turned me onto this guy.

Bill, do you have pics of that antique rapier?  You have the most extensive sword collection I've ever laid eyes on...and I only saw a few pics.

[Das Bill]

Bill, do you have pics of that antique rapier? 

I thought I did. I could have sworn I put up a thread on this site with pics, but I can't find it. The best one I can find right now is this one from when Tom Leoni and I were doing a presentation on antique swords at NHSC:


I'm on the right, and it is in my right hand. Sadly, it doesn't show the sword very well.

I own two antique rapiers, a schiavona and two smallswords, and each one has a very different blade. Despite that, the rapiers and and schiavona could all be "mixed and matched" and still be perfectly normal. One of the rapiers has a very long thrust oriented blade and is more in line with what most modern people think of, while the other rapier is shorter and very cut oriented. The schiavona is somewhat in the middle.

You have the most extensive sword collection I've ever laid eyes on...and I only saw a few pics.

Ed's completely dwarfs mine. I actually don't have as many as it may seem, at least anymore, as I've sold of *A LOT* of swords in order to start buying antiques. While I still very much appreciate well made production swords (particularly from eras where I can't afford the antique version), I've been drawn more and more to the real thing as time goes on. Wish my bank account could keep up.

[Sir William]

Sounds like a natural progression...at least, that is how it has been for me.  I started w/wallhangers and graduated to Windlass types; sadly, the more authentic (and better quality) I go for, the more it'll cost.

Bank accounts rarely make us happy enough, do they?  At least, not our own. 

[Sir Edward]

LOL, yeah my collection may be big, but I've also sold a lot, and will be getting rid of more soon. I'm less enamored with my cheaper pieces these days. Though a few of the wallhangers are still nice to have, as a decoration.

These days I'm focused more on getting scabbards for the swords I already have.

[Sir William]

Same here...the scabbards cost more than some of my swords- most of them, in fact.  Which is why I've explored other options (than DBK) for my lesser ones.