My Armor kit - Historical Fiction?

[scott2978]

I always try real hard not to be an armor snob, though the years of obsession with historical accuracy get in my way sometimes. I must say it's refreshing to see so many like minds here.

About your harness, I have to say it looks so functional and elegant that it could be forklifted directly into Game of Thrones with no changes at all. It may not be historical, but there are plenty of "historical" harnesses that don't look half as good.

If you really want to be historical, and would rather do armor than civilian, join the late 14th century. The journey of learning that I experienced in such far flung aspects as finger loop braids, milk glue and how feudalism evolved into late medieval politics and the impact that had on warfare and thus armor while making a historical 14th century harness was so rewarding that my life will never be the same.

Plus, it would be a crying shame to split up that harness. It's totally obvious that a lot of care, sweat and money went into it.

Scott

[Sir William]

muahahhaha one of us, one of us. dude, next to your kit i would feel like a hobo lol i think it's awesome. i really do. not 100% historical fashion for DOK but 100% welcome in the order!!!

100% agreed.

[Sir Martyn]

Thanks, all - and appreciate the hint, Scott. 

I was leaning toward late 14th or early 15th cent. in any case.

[Sir Martyn]

So, just to continue after a pause of reflection/research and after so much great input (thanks all), wanted to come back to get more views. 

Agreed that late 14th century to early or mid-15th century is looking the most attractive.  Interested most in armor with either great helm or a visored bascinet if earlier, but also really like the armet from the later period, given that seems to be more 15th century. 

Perhaps just getting older and maybe this is an impossible hidgepodge of periods, but the idea of a slightly less heavy harness, perhaps transitional, splinted armor laced to arming points and with maile at the exposed joints, is appealing.  Hoping to avoid chain chauses and prefer fingered gauntet to "mitten" if at all possible.

Want to hear other opinions, but I find myself drawn to the 14th centry clothing (more hoods and tunics) more than 15th centuey (i.e., doublets) - but you could get away with a hood or cotehardie in early 15th, right?  Were surcoats still worn at all by the 15th? 

Also, what about blackened armor?  Historically accurate?  I was thinking I had read that blueing with oil was done in the period. 

In the end, want to first and foremost be accurate but also hoping to nail down a time period/location that could give me some flexibility on style (i.e., France employed Italian blacksmiths, Czechs producing armor for Holy Roman Empire, etc).  Thanks all.

[Ian]

Agreed that late 14th century to early or mid-15th century is looking the most attractive.  Interested most in armor with either great helm or a visored bascinet if earlier, but also really like the armet from the later period, given that seems to be more 15th century. 

Generic Helm Guidelines:
Great Helm

• Early 14th, worn over cervelliere
• Mid 14th - worn over rounded open-faced bascinet with aventail, probably not worn during foot combat

Bascinet

• open faced varieties appropriate through the entire 14th century
• klappvisor - mid 14th into later 14th with flat or hundsgugel shaped visor (note klappvisor refers to the hinge mechanism, not the visor style), popular in Holy Roman Empire (German)
• houndksull side pivoting visor - Later 14th century into 15th century

Armet - Mid to late 15th century

Perhaps just getting older and maybe this is an impossible hidgepodge of periods, but the idea of a slightly less heavy harness, perhaps transitional, splinted armor laced to arming points and with maile at the exposed joints, is appealing.  Hoping to avoid chain chauses and prefer fingered gauntet to "mitten" if at all possible.

If you wear greaves, with plate knees and splinted cuisses, then a coat of plates, and splinted arms, you could easily pull off mid 14th century.  You also can go for plate arms with splinted cuisses (thighs) as was very common.  Style of arm harness will have a lot to do with locale. 
gauntlets at this point in time would be "Wisby Style" finger gauntlets
later in the 14th you'd transition to hourglass style finger gauntlets

No mittens in the 14th, these would go with an armet in the 15th century.

Want to hear other opinions, but I find myself drawn to the 14th centry clothing (more hoods and tunics) more than 15th centuey (i.e., doublets) - but you could get away with a hood or cotehardie in early 15th, right?  Were surcoats still worn at all by the 15th? 

tight cotehardie generally mid 14th
gives way to doublets and gowns in the later 14th
cotehardie out of fashion by 15th
surcoats over armor go out of fashion around Agincourt (1415) but I'm willing to bet older knights still wore them

Also, what about blackened armor?  Historically accurate?  I was thinking I had read that blueing with oil was done in the period. 

dunno

In the end, want to first and foremost be accurate but also hoping to nail down a time period/location that could give me some flexibility on style (i.e., France employed Italian blacksmiths, Czechs producing armor for Holy Roman Empire, etc).  Thanks all.

Understand that knights were very driven by fashion, and as such wouldn't likely vary wildly in style from one knight to another within a specific region, within reason.  Sounds like most of your preferences lead to the mid 14th century, please see this and let me know what most appeals to you:

http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,3207.0.html

[Sir Martyn]

A lot to digest here - thanks for your feedback & tips, Sir Ian.  Doubtless I will have follow-up queries

[Sir Edward]

Ian covered it very well.

For practical/comfort reasons, I'll definitely be the first to discourage people from getting mail chausses, unless they specifically want to do 13th century, and do it right. It takes me 20 minutes to put them on, and they take a bit of work to make "comfortable" (in quotes, because that's a relative scale). While I came up with my own way of attaching them, the historical information we have seems to indicate that they were likely bound at the waist, and did not use any sort of pourpoint or other suspension, so I'm not far off in how I'm doing it, I don't think.

Mitten gauntlets started to disappear at the beginning of the 14th, along with the otherwise full-mail harness.

The mid 14th gives you a lot of flexibility with splinted armor, coats of plates, Wisby-style gauntlets, and a rapidly growing widespread use of plate armor.

[Sir James A]

Blackened armor I know was period for some of the later era "almain rivet" armor - cheap munitions gear made to fit a wide variety of shapes and sizes, with no real finishing, and left "black from the forge".. not cleaned or polished.

The Black Prince's armor in paintings is subject to debate, something about pigment changing colors from silver to black, and some other things I didn't understand.

They had the knowledge and ability to make blackened armor, but I don't know of much extant that is verified as blackened in period. There's a painted sallet that I'm not sure of provenance on, and also a black/gold early style helmet that has maille hanging from the lower edge that isn't thought to be period, so the whole thing is suspect to me.

It looks awesome though!

[Mike W.]

I know the Mac bible has some evidence of blackened maille.

[Ian]

I know the Mac bible has some evidence of blackened maille.

...armor in paintings is subject to debate, something about pigment changing colors from silver to black.

A lot of medieval manuscripts used silver leafing to depict armor/swords... over time as the silver tarnishes it turns black.

[Sir Nate]

Coming in this a bit late but all I have to say is, Fantastic Kit!

[Sir James A]

I know the Mac bible has some evidence of blackened maille.

...armor in paintings is subject to debate, something about pigment changing colors from silver to black.

A lot of medieval manuscripts used silver leafing to depict armor/swords... over time as the silver tarnishes it turns black.

Sounds like exactly what I was thinking of, thanks!

[Sir Martyn]

Right but if not blackened, armor was painted - even then, right?

I have the William Marshall helmet (like visored barbute from Robin Hood film), think Sir William has the same one - was thinking about painting it. 

If to paint, does re-enactment require paints available to the period be used?

[Sir William]

Gareyth, I don't know that I could call that helm 'historically' accurate, at least not for the time period shown in the film (start of the 13th) but if you were wanting to paint it with historical accuracy in mind, you'd probably go with milk-based paints.  Sir Wolf has done it before I think- he's the first to come to mind but likely not the only one of us to have done so already.

[Ian]

Gareyth, I don't know that I could call that helm 'historically' accurate, at least not for the time period shown in the film (start of the 13th) but if you were wanting to paint it with historical accuracy in mind, you'd probably go with milk-based paints.  Sir Wolf has done it before I think- he's the first to come to mind but likely not the only one of us to have done so already.

Correct on all accounts.  A lot of the armor in the Robin Hood movie is 15th century armor that has magically gone back in time to early 13th century England.  IIRC there's sallets and barbutes etc in that movie, which are 250 years before their time. 

Armor was definitely painted from time to time, and milk paint is probably the right thing to use if you want it to be historical paint.

As far as rules regarding paint, "reenactment" or 'living history' are far too broad of terms to worry about specific standards since every group has different levels of authenticity.   An event like Days of Knights will certainly not hold you to period paints or pigments.  It's important to note that Days of Knights is not a Living History Group... it's just an event where lots of different living history groups and individuals get together to put on one big event.  DoK does have a set of standards specific to that event that each group must abide by as much as practicable, but the individual groups and people that participate in DoK have wildly varying standards.  Some are very strict, some barely meet the minimum DoK standards.