Birthday Gift

[Sir Ulrich]

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB0395&name=Great+Helm
I have been considering using this for a birthday gift. Not sure what period it's meant for though, it says 1300 but I'm still unsure. Therion Arms says the 1200s. I sorta need a full helm that I can wear as I have been practicing with rattan clubs with my IRL friend whos in the SCA to try to learn some medieval fighting techniques to prepare myself for WMA. I do however want that dargen one from Royal Oak, but if I got that one I probably wouldnt use it in combat because it's so expensive...

[Ian]

Two things to be careful with:

1.  That helmet would not really be safe for combat with rattan unless you really stuff it full of foam and make it nice and form fitting to your head.  Even with the liner that I think it comes with, one hit in that thing, and it will quite literally ring your bell.

2.  Just realize that SCA combat will not teach you techniques applicable to WMA combat.  SCA combat's style is it's own sport and really isn't founded in WMA.  The benefit of SCA combat will be physical conditioning and the mental prep (basically getting used to hitting someone and being hit) that will definitely help you in any simulated 'combat' situation.  But you are also likely to learn a lot of bad technique habits that are peculiar to SCA style fighting that will not translate to WMA.  If you go in with that understanding you should be fine.

[Sir James A]

Sir Ian made two great points. If you want a helmet for SCA combat, I would get a cheap bargrill to start with; optimum visibility, cheaper, and you'll be able to see if you like SCA or not. If you stick with it, you can sell the bargrill and buy a nicer helm. I have a number of helms that wouldn't meet SCA combat standards, but since I don't do SCA combat with them ... I don't care.

[Sir Ulrich]

Well thing is I am not interested in SCA combat to be honest. It's sorta like me settling for something I really dont like in all honesty simply because theres nothing else in my area. I seriously was born in the wrong area. All I really want to do for it is get my stamina up and running for preparation for WMA or something like that. Normal exercising I got no motivation to do because it doesnt stimulate my mind enough and feels quite.... mindless in all honesty. Partially why I never did Phys Ed in school and simply slept on the bleachers there. In 2010 I was fit for it and quite different because I normally hiked with my friend, I plan to do it again as my friend I hiked with finally has fixed his back, being able to talk and walk keeps my mind off of stuff and I can exercise just fine that way. I think I might just get my parents to give me money so I can get the Royal Oak armory helm I've been wanting for quite a while.

[Sir Wolf]

that thing is a huge brain bucket and will 1 be too big and B be to heavy.

[Bernarr]

Bashing on your friends isn't going to build stamina either. And just because you can hike a trail doesn't mean you can fight, either. I used to hike the Appalachian trail when I was younger, that didn't help me when it came to fighting. I did live steel combat as well as SCA combat for a long time. If you want to build stamina, do what the BOTN team does (direct from their site)-

2. Start Crossfit. If that is too much then do a round of Insanity and if that is too much start P90X. Remember these are just stating points for exercise, you have to get to a point that you can get through these pretty easy then start thinking of ways to really push yourself. Also you need to eat right so only one cheat day a month, throw out that crap you are eating.

Exercise isn't SUPPOSED to stimulate your mind, it's SUPPOSED to be a mindless act. You aren't training to become a neurosurgeon, you're working towards wearing 50+ pounds of steel and bashing on someone else with a steel rod. If you don't have the motivation to work towards a goal, then you should stop wasting time on it now. My first fight I was out of breath in the first few minutes. That pushed me to bust my ass for the next year, which led to a massive increase in stamina the next time I entered an event.
I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm just telling you the truth as I see it. I'm a very blunt person, and I don't mince words, which has gotten me in trouble more times than I care to count.

[Sir Ulrich]

Guess I am gonna try to get a Royal Oak armory helm, that thing weighs like 10 pounds, I dont want that much weight on me, as well as the fact it's not really the design I want, it doesn't look "German" enough for me, looks more like an English designed great helm.

I wasnt bashing my friends at all, I just was stating he broke his back and I haven't gotten much exercise then. I honestly never was very athletic because I never really had a need for it. I used to work out a lot back then though, I just lost all my motivation to do it. Long story short I just need enough stamina to put up a fight. In all honesty unless I got someone to talk to while I exercise it gets rather boring, especially weightlifting which I stopped doing back in 2010. I think doing stuff at a pell and cutting targets would be more "stimulating" for me as It's not just lifting stuff up and down up and down in a boring repetitive fashion, I'd actually be swinging causing damage to something and overall let my frustrations out on targets. I am more interested in WMA than I am SCA stuff it just so happens SCA is the only stuff thats local here, the only thing I'd do that for is the stamina building as rattan clubs dont handle like real swords at all.

Unless you upkeep on stamina you will lose it quickly, though I still do have all my muscles from weightlifting thankfully I never did lose the weight I gained. I am thinking of just setting up the treadmill and watch TV and movies while running so I dont get bored by doing one thing for too long, and I am visually stimulated to distract myself from the pain. Problem is I get bored easily with things...

[Thorsteinn]

I get the mindless bit. Thus why I always hit the gym with my mp3 player. I just listen to the music and let my body do it's thing.

Remember that a light helm is easier to accelerate and thus easier to get a concussion. My SCA helm is 14 ga and with aventail comes in at around 12lbs. After 12 years of fighting it feels a little light too.

Oh, and SCA fighting is what you make of it. Some of the top Western fighters are top WMA'ers and take a lot of what they learned in other disciplines to the field. I had this very same discussion with the head of the old HEMA club here, he said nothing I knew in the SCA was going to work. That there was nothing in the SCA he could learn, and that I could bring into HEMA. That lasted one sparring session after he allowed me to prove SCA was worthy.

One of the best parts of SCA fighting is that you can go as fast and hard as you need to. If you make it an unofficial fight then you can do more, but there are things that only occur at speed. Besides, sticks were good enough for our ancestors to train with.

What's your budget? Have you talked to Hal Therion about what your looking for?

[Sir Ulrich]

Well I did just recently learn how to swing a sword properly, you don't use your arms to exactly swing but your body, it takes a LOT less energy doing it that way and it doesn't strain you as much. I do need a pell to practice on so I can build stamina up as well as strengthen my left arm for holding up a shield properly. I am debating on using double weight stuff just to make the real stuff seem lighter though, thats why I look at the heavy stuff often. That IS what they did historically too...

Well I think my parents are rather cheap when it comes to this stuff cause I'm older and everything I want it more expensive naturally. I prolly would say they'd be willing to spend 100 bucks probably, last year they spend 120 on my Norman sword which was on sale. That means I'd have to pay 300 for the royal oak armory helm which I sooo want. Unless someone else can find me another German styled helm elsewhere thats for the late 13th early 14th century.

[Lord Dane]

Sirs Ian & James are correct. If you wish to use a Great Helm style bucket for your head (especially in SCA style combat), make sure you use foam protection. A Macho Man style or similar head gear w/ a velcro chin strap will make any Great Helm fit snug & provide needed protection. I use it for my Pembridge in full steel combat & I have taken many head shots & felt little effect. It helps dramatically.

You will have limited vision however unless you only plan on facing forward towards an opponent. The weight factor is only a problem if you cannot support it because of your body's small stature. Build up your body before fighting in heavy gear you are unaccustomed to. Also, when training your body doing workouts, do all your stretching with your weapon in hand to get used to gripping/holding and making it part of your motion. It will help with later weapons training building your mass and adjusting to the drills you would do that take stamina over long periods.

[Sir Ulrich]

Yeah, I am starting to second guess the great helm type of helm. I mean it wouldnt be like my topfhelm which only has a face shield and I can hear just fine in it, it would actually RING if I got hit in it and my hearing would be muffled. I only ever worn one great helm before and that was Joe Metz's Bolzano helm which wasnt that heavy actually. Maybe I should just put a new liner in my current topfhelm and use that? Not sure how to make a liner though and I dont have access to a liner nor can I sew so I guess I have to get it made and buy it then glue it into the helm which only has a bit of foam covered in fabric as a liner. Still the one great helm is really tempting and I would like to get one before they increase the price yet again >_>.

I actually think hiking and exercising in armor would build my stamina much better than just exercising alone. Also would get me used to the feel of it all as well. Starting to think thats the best way to do it, I do wear my maille once a week to get used to how it feels, once I finish tailoring it I will probably be able to wear it with even more comfort. Still people WILL question me if I walk around town in armor and hike in it... I was able to fight just plain fine with my kettle helm on which weighs 7.5 pounds, I can easily move in armor as long as it's secure, but if it's oversized and moves around when I try to move with it (IE ill fitting loaner gear). I will basically be overencumbered and unable to even move around properly. Hence why I use wiffle ball bats to duel with my friend, it does give some basics on how to hit your opponent but it doesnt have the same weight as a real sword so I am missing out a bit.

[Lord Dane]

Yeah, I am starting to second guess the great helm type of helm. I mean it wouldnt be like my topfhelm which only has a face shield and I can hear just fine in it, it would actually RING if I got hit in it and my hearing would be muffled. I only ever worn one great helm before and that was Joe Metz's Bolzano helm which wasnt that heavy actually. Maybe I should just put a new liner in my current topfhelm and use that? Not sure how to make a liner though and I dont have access to a liner nor can I sew so I guess I have to get it made and buy it then glue it into the helm which only has a bit of foam covered in fabric as a liner. Still the one great helm is really tempting and I would like to get one before they increase the price yet again >_>.

I actually think hiking and exercising in armor would build my stamina much better than just exercising alone. Also would get me used to the feel of it all as well. Starting to think thats the best way to do it, I do wear my maille once a week to get used to how it feels, once I finish tailoring it I will probably be able to wear it with even more comfort. Still people WILL question me if I walk around town in armor and hike in it... I was able to fight just plain fine with my kettle helm on which weighs 7.5 pounds, I can easily move in armor as long as it's secure, but if it's oversized and moves around when I try to move with it (IE ill fitting loaner gear). I will basically be overencumbered and unable to even move around properly. Hence why I use wiffle ball bats to duel with my friend, it does give some basics on how to hit your opponent but it doesnt have the same weight as a real sword so I am missing out a bit.

Wear the armor ONLY where you are NOT going to be gaining attention when working out. Privately where noone will bother you. Wiffle bats are not really weighted for 'taking-hits' training & too aero-dynamic (i.e. wimpy). Weapons training should be as close as possible to what you will be actually using. Use a poly-carbon, or bamboo style wooden practice weapon for better weight & actual feel of the motion of steel when doing drills. Bo-staffs work great for all intended purposes. Practice with blunted steel only after you get comfortable with motions and weight.

If you really want to use a Great Helm, they do offer great protection. Head & Hands are first targets for any sword fight so protect them best. Get your foam protection at any Martial Arts supplier online. It's not time-period, but in reality, fighting is about protecting yourself & improvising on the spot doesn't always offer best option when you have choices. Besides, noone will be looking under the helm.

[Thorsteinn]

Have you checked out Clang Armoury? I've bought a few items from him and liked them all. He sell's some good historic and A-historic, but cheaper & SCA legal, helms. His historic Pembridge & Klappavisor helms are pure sex.

I'm wondering, how much full speed & full contact work have you done? Does the local SCA group have any loaner gear for you to borrow at practice?

(BTW for price comparisons to Clangs stuff look at Anshelm Armoury, Aesir Metalworks, or Windrose. While not an entry level price range it's all good work. My helm from Windrose, all told, was $820 inc the cost of the aventail, but my first helm ever was $100.)

[Ian]

Disclaimer, like Bernarr stated in his post, the sensitive need not listen:

Sir Ulrich, as Bernarr has alluded to, hiking isn't going to cut it if you're serious about building fighting stamina.  Real fighting can be sustained all-out physical exertion, which will completely exhaust you in less than a minute if you're not in good condition.  Running isn't even really enough.  You really need to get serious about physical training if you want to be in good 'fighting shape.'  All the programs he mentioned are very good.  I've done both P90X and Insanity myself.  Insanity will definitely get you in the proper physical condition if you stick with it and complete the entire thing and give it every ounce of will power you've got.  If you don't, you can expect minimal results.

You have to bear in mind that the men who did this for real, i.e. real knights and men-at-arms, did this literally for life and death.  You had to have every edge up on your opponent if you wanted to live.  Fighting without a harness on is exhausting, these men did it with an extra 50-80lbs of steel on, limited visibility, and poor ventilation.

You don't need to do a specific exercise program, like P90X or Insanity etc, but they will help you because they're so structured.  The other good part about them is you can start at your current fitness level.  What you really need to do is a combination of intense resistance training in the form of weight lifting, and intense cardio, generally in the form of high-intensity interval training to really build stamina.  If you jump in and try to go all out at the beginning, you will injure yourself or not make any progress and get discouraged and stop.  And look, no offense, but any weight lifting you did in the past, all those strength gains you may have made, despite what you weigh now, it's all GONE.  It doesn't stay with you if you're body doesn't need it anymore, it's just how our body's work.  As soon as you stop lifting, all that extra muscle mass that your body doesn't need anymore slowly catabolizes and fuels your body and the weight you have now, whether it's visible or not, is not muscle mass, it's fat.

Fitness is really a lifestyle, it's not something you do casually.  If you're interested in really learning to be in good shape, I will help you get started.  Fitness is an important part of my life, and I take it very seriously.

EDIT:  Look at the Battle of the Nations Polish training video Thorsteinn posted in the other thread and observe the athletes during their warm-up at the beginning.  You can see just by looking at their physical condition that these guys take their physical training seriously, not a fat, or weak out of shape person in the group.

[Sir Edward]

As an aside, speaking to the historical context of that GDFB helm:  Flat-topped great helms are common from around the 1270's into the first few decades of the 1300's. Soon after, they gradually start having rounded tops, which by the mid 14th are almost all rounded and designed to fit over smaller bascinets, and are also gradually becoming less common in general.

My understanding is that the lack of a cross ocular, and instead having the eye slots lipped outward like that was something that evolved around 1300 or so, as a cheaper AND safer design. The outward protrusion from the eye slots keeps sword-tips from sliding into the slots.

So I'd say circa 1300-1310 is a good estimate, though you can fudge that a decade or two in either direction.