ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Leganoth on 2012-02-10, 08:12:19
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Well guys, I have been looking at illusion armoring, i think i am going to get a 14th century set. I was planning on getting the arms and legs so might as well get the chest too! Only thing is, my helmets. I dont think a crusaders great helm would fit the 14th century set, BUT my pig faced helmet WOULD fit the period but, it has brass trim and the plate does not.
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It would not be incorrect to have brass trim on only certain parts of your kit. Just be wary, if you read any reviews on illusion, the general consensus is they do good work, but be prepared for long delays and minimal communication. From what I've read, we're talking well over a year to see anything completed if they have to build it for you.
14th century is a century of immense change in armor. If you're looking to be in plate arms and legs, you're looking at the mid to late 14th century. The pig faced bascinet fits within the later part of the 14th century. You can also wear a klappvisor bascinet slightly earlier in the century, which is also found to be worn and favored by German knights much later in the century when it went out of style in other parts of Europe. You're correct that a crusader era helm would be out of place for a plate wearing knight of the 14th century. If you wanted to go early 14th century, you would be primarily maille, with some plate bits, like elbow and knee cops, and then you might be able to get away with the crusader style helm, depending on what specific style we're talking about.
Chest protection varies too. By the mid 14th century, a coat of plates would be common, an actual 14th century globose breastplate is more common for late 14th century, and a corrazzina, which is similar to a 15th c brigandine may also be seen in the late 14th. So you have some options on the chest.
For almost all of the 14th century, full plate included, you're looking at a full maille haubergeon underneath everything if authenticity is important to you. Voiders and maille faulds do not reveal themselves until the 15th century.
I can go on and on as this is my time period of interest so, let me know if you need any info.
My kit's style is late 14th century England. There are big stylistic differences between different parts of Europe, so ideally narrowing down a region is helpful.
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Wait, a brigandine is 15th C?
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true Brigs are a 15thc item. they have larger plates than the later 16thc versions.
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So, say a 'Clan Andrews' style brig is 16th C? Well...that takes the wind right outta my sails it does.
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Yeah, you're looking at coats of plates in the earlier periods. Brigs are pretty late.
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Like the one I'm selling...ugh. lol
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Well, it also depends on what part of the period. The coat of plates you're selling is appropriate for mid-14th. Earlier than that, and the plates were sewn into larger coats, like surcoats.
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You know, Lloyd Clark mentioned something about making an armoured surcoat, which I thought sounded way cool. I really wanted a brig though, I just like the look of them. I think I might go that route anyway...I know it isn't anachronistic to the 14th C but since I'm not fighting and I'm not in the SCA, I can get away with it. The average lay person's not going to know the difference and it is they who are our main audience currently.
I know that's bad isn't it. lol
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illusion does make nice stuff, just wait time sometimes takes a while.
you would be ok with a brass edged helmet and not anything else.
as far the other topic, think of it this way. coats of plates = correnzas(sp) = brigs = etc. just like aketons = gambesons = jacks = jack of plates etc. there all different animals, some closer cousins to some than others. there is so much mix n match its crazy during the 14thc.
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Hmm I see, would buying from here be a good idea or is there anywhere else? Would it be cheaper to buy everything aside from the helmet in a pack or separately? And how much would that probably cost because dont you have to pay for strapping etc?
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Short of full on custom work, Anshelm Arms does some great 14th century armor, but it's not cheap. A less expensive but less accurate alternative would be Mad Matt, or a lot of the guys who regularly frequent the Armour Archive. Everyone I see order from Illusion generally waits YEARS to get their stuff if they order a full suit.
You can get away with less parts if you tell me specifically what part of the 14th century you're after. If you're in to the pig-faced bascinet, you would be looking at LATE 14th century, England, France, or Italy. If you like Italy, you can skip spaulders altogether, wear 3/4 plate arms, and drape your maille over the tops of the rerebrace. If you like English style, we're talking about full articulated arms and integrated spaulders. France is not too dissimilar from England. If you want to make a good kit, I recommend you look at some effigies from your time period first, put in the time doing the research, narrow down your focus and then start worrying about armorers. And don't forget, a good kit is 100% dependent on good arming clothes! If you want to do it right, take the time, it's worth it, and cheaper in the long run.
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Those late 14th cent kits are some of the hardest to truly do well. You need these very specific plate parts, (Almost a full suit) and then you need to have a nicely tailored haubergeon underneath.
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A less expensive but less accurate alternative would be Mad Matt,
I believe Matt's re-emergence is as a strictly custom project armourer so i'm not sure how much cheaper he's going to be.
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Then again...
If I was going to go for a custom job I would be pestering this absolutely magnificent armorer! ;)
http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25 (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25)
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hehe u cultist you ;)
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Then again...
If I was going to go for a custom job I would be pestering this absolutely magnificent armorer! ;)
http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25 (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25)
Indeed!
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Add me to the cult of Allan-Armour king!
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I have a peascod breast and back from Illusion, I can vouch for their work being quality stuff. That being said, I have heard from others it can take a long time to get stuff from them. I ordered mine last year and had it done with a rush completion date, which cost more, but it was finished within that time. I don't believe they offer that on full suits and I think the current estimated completion date for work is Sept. or Oct. I found the communication to be adequate, but I asked alot of questions and sent requests for updates frequently. The responses were always prompt and courteous. They do allow you to put items on "lay away", order and pay for them as you can. They will not start work until the order is at least half or more paid, and complete payment must be recieved before the item is shipped, but if you are ordering a several thousand dollar complete suit that makes it much easier to swallow the cost. I was so pleased with their work that I am considering ordering a gorget from them for the border riever impression I am working on and possibly considering changing from a coat of plate to a globose breastplate from them for the 14th Cent. kit I am working on.
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Sir Matthew, when do we get to see pics?
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So it would probably be easier to get piece by piece because if I am to order a whole suit at once i would be so impatient because i would want it so bad
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You may want to do the math if money is an issue. Its not entirely uncommon to sell whole rigs at a discount due to the volume of the order so you may be paying more by pieceing it out from Illusions than doing it as a whole harness. I don't know if Scott does this but the parts for that suit are on the site so calculating it out shouldn't be to tough.
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This is what they said (copy and p[aste)
Greetings,
I am happy to give you those prices. I'm using an insert from our web page to make it a little easier for me, so I hope you don't mind.
14th Century
Steel
1 Gorget w/ Floating Collar
80
1 14th Century Breast & Back with Faulds
315
1 Pr 14th Century Spaulders
95
1 Pr 14th Century Arms
195
1 Pr 14th Century Legs
215
1 Pr Floating Greaves
65
1 Pr Munition Mitten Gauntlets
145
1 Pr Sabatons with Open Heel
105
Total
1,215
Discount
122
TOTAL w/ discount
1,093
(Shipping + $70 Strapping + $350)
Since most of the armor we make is for combat sports, we do ask that you send us your measurements because we fit all our armor to the person. When using armor for combat, it needs to fit and work properly. We have a measurement chart on our ordering page, and you only need to fill in the measurements for the items you are purchasing, however we will need height and weight for all items.
If you are looking for a display sized suit, you don't have to send measurements because we can make an averaged sized suit and send it to you. We are happy to work with you in whatever way works best for your needs.
You can order the suit however you'd like, but it will help you to know that we are currently scheduling orders for completion in October 2012. If you order the full suit all at once, we offer a discount. If you order the items one at a time, you don't receive the discount. If you are in a hurry for the armor, you can use our "Rush Order" policy located on our INFO page, but it is pretty expensive.
We have a couple of different types of payment plans you can use:
The first is our standard method of payment where you send a 50 percent down payment and you pay the balance due after we have completed the order.
The second method of payment is our layaway plan. Layaway requires a 20 percent down payment. You then make payments on your own schedule until it is paid off. We do require you that the order has a full 50 percent payment made by the time we start work on the order which is approximately 4 to 6 weeks before the assigned completion date. If we have not received a full 1/2 down payment by one month prior to the completion date, we will not start on the order and we will reassign the completion date. We do not send out bills requesting you to pay, however we do send you an invoice for each payment we receive so you have a running total for your records.
If there's anything else I can do for you please let me know. I am always more than happy to answer any and all questions you might have.
Thank you,
Lynette Martin
www.illusionarmoring.com (http://www.illusionarmoring.com)
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Just so you're aware, mitten gauntlets and gorgets are not really authtentic for late 14th century armor. They're including them because gorgets are generally a requirement for the combat sports they're referring to, and mitten gauntlets are also easier to make 'legal' for things like SCA combat.
Authentic armor for the time would have hourglass finger gauntlets, and if you were a less wealthy knight, perhaps wisby style finger gauntlets. Neck protection would be a maille aventail, not a gorget.
Also, I'm not exactly sure what they mean by floating greaves, but fully enclosed cased greaves are the norm by this time, but that's probably a little flexible depending on your knight's means.
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If you order the full suit all at once, we offer a discount. If you order the items one at a time, you don't receive the discount.
This is kida what I figured. We used to do it, I believe ICE does, when there were more shopes around there were some others that did.
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Just so you're aware, mitten gauntlets and gorgets are not really authtentic for late 14th century armor. They're including them because gorgets are generally a requirement for the combat sports they're referring to, and mitten gauntlets are also easier to make 'legal' for things like SCA combat.
Authentic armor for the time would have hourglass finger gauntlets, and if you were a less wealthy knight, perhaps wisby style finger gauntlets. Neck protection would be a maille aventail, not a gorget.
Also, I'm not exactly sure what they mean by floating greaves, but fully enclosed cased greaves are the norm by this time, but that's probably a little flexible depending on your knight's means.
Yeah i dont want mittens i want 14th cent gauntlets. I also would want fully encased greaves so Im gonna reply and say that
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also, off topic a bit but would it be logical to put in strapping in your helmet to go under your chin so your helm doesnt fall off
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Sir Matthew, when do we get to see pics?
I think I posted some of my peascod, I'll have to add some to my knight page. I don't have enough or really anything for my 14th Century kit yet. It's still in the planning stages, seems like it has been forever. Someday I'll finish my 16th/17th century stuff and move on to this. Or win the lotter or get a huge inheritance and be able to afford to finish both ::)
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also, off topic a bit but would it be logical to put in strapping in your helmet to go under your chin so your helm doesnt fall off
As far as I know a simple chin strap is period correct. Things like the SCA require very specific types of chin straps to by fighting legal, but if this isn't a concern, a normal leather strap with period buckle would be fine.
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Hello I'm new here but have some recent experience with Illusion. I ordered a full harness of their Burgundian Gothic in stainless. The communications were pretty good with only a few delays and the product is great. The only problem I had was the visor on the helm was incorrect. This was quickly remedied and now I have two visors. The waiting period was eleven months though. All in all I am very happy.
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Then again...
If I was going to go for a custom job I would be pestering this absolutely magnificent armorer! ;)
http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25 (http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25)
I thought he went out of business a while back??
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Yes, he did, but he's a member of this forum (and AA) and he's been churning out stuff on the sly...if you get a chance to get any of his wares, TAKE IT. I wish he was still in business...I have a gorget, spaulders and greaves setup from him; would've liked to have gotten cuisses and knees, his upper rebrace and elbow cops with a BP to round it all out.
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aww so he wouldnt be able to make a full suit
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Not since he's closed up shop...but before? Oh yea. If I only had the money back then...
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aww so he wouldnt be able to make a full suit
I have been building and selling to stuff to cover the bills and costs of getting outstanding commisions done http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/search.php?mode=results (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/search.php?mode=results) ( most of the entries on the first page ) for several months once I gave up looking for a new job ( the crap condition of my car makes it next to impossible to seek a new job currently anyway ). I do not take commisions of any sort selling/taking money only for finished goods as my focus is on getting outstanding commisions finished not getting back into the business. I do not and will not build for sale anything which is still owed, that would be definitively not right. It takes a fair amount of sold material to keep this going and I have been trying to remember to cross post stuff I put up here, so if you keep an eye open theres a fair chance to pick up something. As I have to build stuff every week it is possible to arrange to have something that is not owed build ( payment only after completion ) so I don't have to figure out what to build to sell, but again this is limited to what is not owed outstanding commissions, and materials avaliable.
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Don't get my hopes up Allan...please don't!!! lol
Although I doubt anyone would be happier to see you back in the biz, I know what you're doing and I think it honorable.
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aww so he wouldnt be able to make a full suit
I have been building and selling to stuff to cover the bills and costs of getting outstanding commisions done http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/search.php?mode=results (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/search.php?mode=results) ( most of the entries on the first page ) for several months once I gave up looking for a new job ( the crap condition of my car makes it next to impossible to seek a new job currently anyway ). I do not take commisions of any sort selling/taking money only for finished goods as my focus is on getting outstanding commisions finished not getting back into the business. I do not and will not build for sale anything which is still owed, that would be definitively not right. It takes a fair amount of sold material to keep this going and I have been trying to remember to cross post stuff I put up here, so if you keep an eye open theres a fair chance to pick up something. As I have to build stuff every week it is possible to arrange to have something that is not owed build ( payment only after completion ) so I don't have to figure out what to build to sell, but again this is limited to what is not owed outstanding commissions, and materials avaliable.
Ahh I think I understand, Ill look around and see what your posting from now often
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If I ever win the lottery or inherit a huge sum of money, I'll be giving you a call Allan. I have a wish list long enough to keep you gainfully employed making armor for a very long time. I would still definitely love to get my hands on an Almain Collar (hint, hint). Can't find anyone else making them :-[
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I would still definitely love to get my hands on an Almain Collar (hint, hint).
I currently owe one of those.
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I would still definitely love to get my hands on an Almain Collar (hint, hint).
I currently owe one of those.
Ah, well, so it goes. It doesn't hurt to drop a hint or ask, I suppose. Maybe I just need to buy more (or a) lottery tickets ;)