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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Sir Edward on 2011-06-01, 13:58:43
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I figured I'd post a mini-review. What I have is the AB3084 (code 6), 48" chest, 17ga flat-ring dome-riveted stainless haugergeon (http://cashanwei.com/prod_Detail.aspx?id=AB3084).
I'm pretty pleased with this armor. The rings are strong, and the weight is manageable at 18 pounds. It ships with a black coating that immediately starts flaking off. Already my mail, after a test fitting and wearing it to faire once, is sort of a dark grey in color now. It's continuing to flake. So I think this coating was meant as a sealant after manufacturing, rather than packing it in grease. This means it's wearable right away without massive clean-up, but you may be vacuuming up the black flakes for a while if you try it on indoors.
The chest-size measurement is optimistic. I have a 41" chest (measured over a thin shirt). The 48"/50" size they report doesn't give me any real extra room. If I had planned to wear a thick gambeson under this, I'd have needed their 60" model.
As I've noted elsewhere, it's more difficult to get in and out of than my aluminum mail, which is butted round wire links. The reasons are fairly simple:
- The flat links have less room to move relative to each other since the flat wire is wider within the plane of the link, and also the links are a slightly smaller diameter anyway.
- Occasionally a rivet catches the fabric. It's not a big problem, but one or two links are just a little sharp and will catch.
- The thin edges of the links, combined with having rivets, simply provides more overall friction compared to smooth round wire.
- It's a tighter fit with a smaller neck opening to get my head through.
Things they did right:
- The neck and shoulder area is shaped pretty well, so it doesn't put all of the weight on any one spot. It's really just a straight horizontal pattern across the top, but often that's better than some of the odd shaping I've seen before.
- The back sheet is wider than the front sheet. This is historically correct and aids in mobility. It results in the arm holes being slightly angled forward, which is needed.
Things they neglected:
- As is often the case with most off-the-rack armor, they didn't taper the sleeves. I realize you can't plan for all arm sizes or how much padding people will use. But it's just straight tubes, so you can still get that "wings of mail" thing going on that I really hate.
- They didn't widen the base at all. It was really difficult to sit down with the armor on, and it was also making it additionally difficult to get in and out of the armor as a result. I added expansion triangles with completely different links (14ga galvanized steel round-wire butt links) on the sides at the base. The results are night and day. I can sit comfortably, and go into wide stances, and it helped enormously in getting the armor on and off.
- Technically the armpits could have some more expansion, since it will pull taught when you get your upper arm above horizontal. But for most of the motion you need, it won't pull on the body much, if at all. It's when you need to do high-guards in combat that you may notice this. But the way they put it together is normal for off-the-rack armor.
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Still, it sounds like they're improving the way they make these and that is reassuring. They could still taper the sleeves a bit, I would think...as you say, those flapping wings of maille are NO FUN at all. I've often wondered about their sizing as well...I mean, I know as a country we tend towards obesity but not ALL of us do...so I've been slow to consider these because having a 40" chest means it'd be way oversized on me, or so I thought.
That review is done in a format I think we should adopt...too often a lot of emphasis is placed on a scoring system which may or may not really convey the positive (and negative) qualities of a given product. Nicely done, Sir Edward.
I hope that this sparks off a number of reviews on swords and armor...not only are they fun to read but they are (I hope) informative and can help others when making decisions about such things...and where to get them. I know the general rule is whatever it may cost, check KoA first...is that what you did, Sir Edward?
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I've often wondered about their sizing as well...I mean, I know as a country we tend towards obesity but not ALL of us do...so I've been slow to consider these because having a 40" chest means it'd be way oversized on me, or so I thought.
I think you have to go by jacket size rather than actual measurement with a tape measure. I tend to wear a size 44 jacket, and the rule of thumb with most mail is to leave an extra 4", so that adds up to 48". But if I start from the tape measure, I'd have expected a lot more room in the armor.
I hope that this sparks off a number of reviews on swords and armor...not only are they fun to read but they are (I hope) informative and can help others when making decisions about such things...and where to get them. I know the general rule is whatever it may cost, check KoA first...is that what you did, Sir Edward?
KOA is remarkably close to wholesale on a lot of their offerings. Their prices tend to be excellent. I got it just a hair cheaper (I'll explain later), but these days I usually do just go to KOA.
Here's the KOA page for the one I got:
(mail,haubergeon)
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB3084&name=Chain+Mail+Haubegen+-+Dome+Riveted+-+Flattened+ring+-+Stainless+Steel+48%27%27+Chest (http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB3084&name=Chain+Mail+Haubegen+-+Dome+Riveted+-+Flattened+ring+-+Stainless+Steel+48%27%27+Chest)
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Glad to know what quality the GDFB maille is, guess I made the right decision for going for Icefalcon, I kinda NEED tapering sleeves because my arms are quite thin. I haven't a clue how to make things taper with maille. The price is decent though, so I'm gonna pick up a coif from them in the future. Looks like they're big for a reason though considering the chest size is 48 while my own chest size is 34 I believe.
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I'm torn between these two:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2542&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+%2D+Dome+Riveted+%2D+Aluminum+60%27%27+Chest (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2542&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+%2D+Dome+Riveted+%2D+Aluminum+60%27%27+Chest)
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2528&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+%2D+Wedge+Riveted%2DSolid+Ring+%2D+Flattened+ring+%2D+Mild+Steel+60%27%27+Chest (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2528&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+%2D+Wedge+Riveted%2DSolid+Ring+%2D+Flattened+ring+%2D+Mild+Steel+60%27%27+Chest)
Does anyone have any experience with GDBF aluminum maille? I've heard aluminum rings in maille from other manufacturers can stretch and break around the shoulders from the weight of the shirt. How's GDBF hold up? How does it look in real life? I don't want something that looks like its from a fantasy movie on the SciFi network! Weight is really the only thing keeping me from going with steel. Any thoughts?
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Well if you can't stand the wieght, then aluminum is your only option really :-\
BTW, Sir Ed, could we have another child board for this section for reviews?
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All aluminum is susceptible to stretching and tearing, especially if you're clamping other armor over it. I think folks here have mostly used the Thinkgeek aluminum, which is very cost effective, but it's also some of the softer stuff out there. I haven't had a chance to work with the GDFB versions yet.
My aluminum is butted stuff that I made from electric fence wire, in 14ga. I put some steel links in key places (the inside of the crotch splits, and the entire neck opening), and it holds up really well.
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Well if you can't stand the wieght, then aluminum is your only option really :-\
BTW, Sir Ed, could we have another child board for this section for reviews?
Not a bad idea. :)
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I'm torn between these two:
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2542&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+%2D+Dome+Riveted+%2D+Aluminum+60%27%27+Chest (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2542&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+%2D+Dome+Riveted+%2D+Aluminum+60%27%27+Chest)
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2528&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+%2D+Wedge+Riveted%2DSolid+Ring+%2D+Flattened+ring+%2D+Mild+Steel+60%27%27+Chest (http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB2528&name=Chain+Mail+Hauberk+%2D+Wedge+Riveted%2DSolid+Ring+%2D+Flattened+ring+%2D+Mild+Steel+60%27%27+Chest)
Does anyone have any experience with GDBF aluminum maille? I've heard aluminum rings in maille from other manufacturers can stretch and break around the shoulders from the weight of the shirt. How's GDBF hold up? How does it look in real life? I don't want something that looks like its from a fantasy movie on the SciFi network! Weight is really the only thing keeping me from going with steel. Any thoughts?
I've got an icefalcon aluminum riveted. To be honest, the weight is fantastic, the look is horrid. It's bright silver and super shiny. It doesn't look right at all, but it feels great! It's also easy to break and lose rings. The steel is heavy, but looks so much better. Titanium will give the look of steel and the weight of aluminum but it's outrageously expensive.
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I think I'll stick with steel. I think there's only a five pound difference between the shirts anyway, and I'd much rather have something that won't break and looks more accurate. Would love to go with Icefalcon, but with as little as I get to armour up throughout the year (not as big a Renfaire scene out here as a lot of you guys enjoy), I just can't justify the cost difference.
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I stay with steel because it sorta tarnishes to this blackish grey color and I like that. Just dont want it turning all rusty, a rust spot here and there wont bug me though. Main reason I went with Icefalcon maille is cause it's a smaller size and wont have excessive weight on my skinny frame. The sleeves are also longer and probably easier to tailor. Icefalcon stainless is the way to go though if you want minimum maintenance and accurate looks with the whole black coating.
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Seconded on a review section.
I'd also suggest going with the steel mail. Dark is not always period and there are period accounts of shiny armor.
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Is anyone edging their maille in leather? Adding ties over key locations? Is it as good as advertised?
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I'd also suggest going with the steel mail. Dark is not always period and there are period accounts of shiny armor.
Stainless steel is another option that Icefalcon has. It's more expensive, but not nearly as bad as titanium. You get all the weight (and the right look) of steel, but it's much more rust resistant. I have stainless chausses from Icefalcon, and they've been maintenance-free so far.
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I've got a GDFB hauberk, riveted, flat ring, steel.
The weight isn't a burden at all. At less than 20 lbs, I can run around with the thing on for very long periods of time. The tailoring jobs I did were to add a split (period accurate for a hauberk) and to taper the sleeves. Hard, time consuming, but extremely rewarding.
Acutally, rust hasn't been a problem at all. Only time was when I got some sweat on it. Since then, I've worn it multiple times and no maintenace needed. Definatly worth the $400 IMO
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Is anyone edging their maille in leather? Adding ties over key locations? Is it as good as advertised?
Yep, I'm happy with it from the "house testing" so far. I'll post some pics of mine tonight or tomorrow.
I leather edged the bottom & split of the hauberk (as pictured in the Bayeaux tapestry), the top of my fauld, the top of my chausses (to make pointing easy and keep the points from fraying on the steel rings), and I've also been toying with the idea of doing edging on the voiders.
As for ties, I need to order some buckles for my soupcan knees and elbows. The buckles on those, tightened up, should be almost like ties. I often see mention of ties at the knees and elbows - less often at the wrists, but I'd wager it's since (some? most? many?) hauberks had integral mittens and the lower sleeve would be kept in place by the hands. One exception I know of is a picture where a knight in mail is kneeling (I think?) to remove an arrow from himself and is untying his mitten - I can't remember if it's period or not; I'm leaning towards not, though.
One thing I read somewhere that made a substantial difference with a hauberk is once you get the hauberk on, lift your arms above your head and have someone tie a cord (or a small belt) around your waist. When you lower your arms, the slack in the upper mail will "flop" over the belt a bit - but the lower half should stay in place. The benefit is that now when you lift or move your arms, the mail will not try to pull or stretch against your sword belt, as long as your sword belt is at or below where the cord/inner belt is. And as a bonus, you aren't attempting to "lift the weight" of the hauberk along with your arm so you fatigue much less, as well as having the weight partially distributed on your hips/waist instead of all riding on your shoulders.
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Yes I know some SCA'ers that use the belt technique and they say it works well. There is also the 'Varangian Bra' (see below, left man), and some suggestion that, at Hastings, the maille was sewn to the gambeseons.
(http://www.larsbrownworth.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Varangian_Guard.jpg)
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One thing I read somewhere that made a substantial difference with a hauberk is once you get the hauberk on, lift your arms above your head and have someone tie a cord (or a small belt) around your waist. When you lower your arms, the slack in the upper mail will "flop" over the belt a bit - but the lower half should stay in place. The benefit is that now when you lift or move your arms, the mail will not try to pull or stretch against your sword belt, as long as your sword belt is at or below where the cord/inner belt is. And as a bonus, you aren't attempting to "lift the weight" of the hauberk along with your arm so you fatigue much less, as well as having the weight partially distributed on your hips/waist instead of all riding on your shoulders.
A belt is a must with my haubergeon. It makes all the difference in the world when it comes to weight distribution. Just like a good pourpoint for your leg harness, belting your maille keeps the weight on the hips instead of the shoulders and makes wear much more comfortable. Arm movement is much less hindered as well.
The only problem is when it's all said and done, I'm doing to have like 50 belts on... belt for maille, sword belt, plaque belt, and then the waist strap for the breastplate, that's kind of ridiculous. What I'm going to experiment with is weaving a leather thong through the maille at my natural waist as just tie it off that way instead of using an actual belt. My breastplate sits at my natural waist as well and can interfere with the maille belt. A leather thong will be much less obtrusive and should work just as well.
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Yeah, the belt thing was absolutely necessary in my old 14ga butted hauberk. The hauberk alone was 40 pounds, and the sleeves were angled in such a way that it would pull the body if you lifted your arms at all. It certainly works.
With my riveted haubergeon for my mid 14th kit, I still put a belt, but I don't worry so much about lifting it first. Just having it cinched down helps keep some of the weight on the hips, and the body tube doesn't pull up too much compared to that heavier hauberk I used to have.
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Is anyone edging their maille in leather? Adding ties over key locations? Is it as good as advertised?
Here's the 2 pics from the Bayeaux Tapestry (someone else found them for me):
http://users.breathe.com/martin.reeve/bayeux.jpg (http://users.breathe.com/martin.reeve/bayeux.jpg)
http://seattlegis.com/travel/041_bayeux_tapestry_williams_cavalry_go_off_at_a_gallop_postcard.jpg (http://seattlegis.com/travel/041_bayeux_tapestry_williams_cavalry_go_off_at_a_gallop_postcard.jpg)
Here's a couple pics of mine:
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/armor/icefalcon/2011-12-21192845.jpg)
Fauld & Chausses
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/armor/icefalcon/2011-12-21193106.jpg)
Hauberk
I split the hauberk up the front entirely, and leather edged it. I have holes punched along the leather edging, and the lacing is used to tie it tight. Once the surcoat is over it, it's not even noticeable since the hauberk would traditionally be split in the front anyway.
I need to finish "tuck and tying" on the hauberk, but the fauld and chausses are "done" (ha). If I can track down some better, period appropriate lacing, instead of wal-mart shoe laces, I'll get it swapped out for something proper. On the fauld and chausses, it all gets covered up, but it shows on the hauberk. :(
some suggestion that, at Hastings, the maille was sewn to the gambeseons.
Interesting, do you have a source for the suggestion? This is one of my "upcoming projects" to try. I picked up a pair of long sleeve shirts a few months back and sewed them together. I'll be sewing in "built in padding" at the hips and shoulders between the layers, similar to a gambeson, and looking into lacing the leather edging of the hauberk to the shirt itself. That way the shirt can still be unlaced for cleaning, but armoring up should be as easy as putting on a heavy jacket & tying laces, since I won't have to put on a separate gambeson.
Edit: found a few more older pics:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/mail/Photo0430.jpg (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/mail/Photo0430.jpg)
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/mail/Photo0431.jpg (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/mail/Photo0431.jpg)
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/mail/Photo0432.jpg (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/mail/Photo0432.jpg)
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/mail/Photo0433.jpg (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t8/jba3/medieval/mail/Photo0433.jpg)
Methinks I'll post up a quick thread in the How To section for the edging. It's easy, but I have the pictures, so why not. :)
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Now that I got my hands on a GDFB maille coif I notice one MAJOR difference between Icefalcon and GDFB maille. While the GDFB stuff is riveted better in some ways the GDFB stuff is a LOT rougher on gambesons and to the touch than icefalcon. Icefalcon maille is softer on gambesons and less scratchy. Guess I should of went for wedge riveted cause the dome riveted stuff is HARSH on the skin. It's VERY robust though and I think it could survive an arrow if shot at by one. I prefer the icefalcon maille due to being lighter and a lot less harsher on gambesons and skin, I actually got cuts putting the coif on and off. I do like the coif though it doesnt have a gaping neck hole like most coifs. I do want to trim the avantail part of it down though and prehaps blacken it to match my hauberk. Any suggestions on how to blacken maille?