Custom re-enactment sword commission

[B. Patricius]

Greetings all,

basically I just wanted to start a thread asking if anyone has worked with swordsmiths making a custom sword before?  As some of you know I'm in the market as it were, for a custom designed sword based somewhat off of Arn's Sword that Albion makes.

Basically mine isn't too fancy in its design, it's an Oakeshott Type XI basically.  I just want it to have some nice fine detail touches.

Without going too much into the nitty gritty details, the smith I got in contact with is excited about the project but hand forges his blades whether they be for re-enactment or cutting.  This to me, can be a good thing or a bad thing.  His previous work I've seen online definitely looks nicely made enough.  But that definitely adds to the price.

He's quoting me $900 for the sword.  That, to me, isn't that bad.  My only concerns are the fact he wants 50% down, without it being a deposit (I won't get it back, ever) so he can then use those funds for the casting of the guard and pommel and purchase materials.

That is what concerns me. 

I'm a small business kind of guy.  I'm trying to get my own going as we speak that is within the re-enactment community as well, just within Cowboy Action Shooting.  I know steel fairly well, I definitely know CAD/CAM/CNC, and I know how I'd at least run a custom shop.  It just kind of rubs me wrong.  That, and his correspondence thus far, which we have done all via e-mail, has had poor grammar, no letterhead, no format whatsoever.

So, for him at least, I'm thinking I'm going to try a different sword smith, even if they may be more expensive. 

My main concern is if the 50% down, no deposit is usual for a sword?  I know for armour it isn't.  At least, that isn't how Ice does things.

thanks all

YIS
B. Patricius

[Sir Edward]

Actually, I think 50% down, non-refundable isn't a terrible request for a full-custom piece, since materials and design time have to be committed to the project that probably can not be re-used for another order if you decide to back out. However, combining that with poor communication skills, I'd probably be nervous about it too.

Albion and A&A usually accept somewhere around $300 to get started, even if the order is a bit more expensive ($1000 or more), but they're always able to find buyers if you have to back out. A&A's custom work is pretty top-notch, and they're pretty flexible. My last order from them was 100% custom, about $1100, and they got started with about $300 down.

[Ian]

That amount is not too unreasonable. Just do the research on this particular smith and make sure he has a good reputation and won't have hundreds of unforeseen circumstances suddenly result in your money disappearing with no sword to show for it.

If he's got a good reputation for being a professional then you should feel safe. In my custom armor purchases I usually pay a deposit up front and then pay in installments once work commences. I've also had to pay the full amount up front. In either case I was dealing with people who I knew beyond a doubt would complete the work to my satisfaction.

[Sir James A]

Actually, I think 50% down, non-refundable isn't a terrible request for a full-custom piece, since materials and design time have to be committed to the project that probably can not be re-used for another order if you decide to back out. However, combining that with poor communication skills, I'd probably be nervous about it too.

50% down non-refundable is common from everything I've dealt with. That covers, usually, materials. The other 50% is labor. The issue that happens is when somebody bails after a piece is finished, and they're left holding an item specific to one person's request; swords are a little more "generic" in that they aren't fitted to you like armor, but depending how specific it is (engraving, heraldry, etc), it could be nearly impossible to sell - which means they lose those days/weeks of work, and the 50% down covered materials for an item they can't sell. Kind of like going to work for a few weeks, and then being told "oh, we're not paying you, find another job".

Communication skills, yeah, I'd be nervous. Have you tried Albion directly, since they make that sword with different details?

[Sir William]

This is a custom job- 50% down is fair; it also serves as a deterrent for those who might be quick to pull out because the wait gets long.  FWIW, I have the Arn sword...I renamed it 'Irae' and I absolutely love it.

I saw a custom Type XI go for about that much on the AA boards...wanted it myself but couldn't convince the wife that I needed it. 

[B. Patricius]

Cool, thanks everybody.  I just wanted to double check.  I thought the price was very reasonable, I was just concerned about the other details of the conversation.  Right now, I'm kind of iffy though on this particular armorer because he isn't that well known, combined with the poor communication skills he's been showing.  It isn't the fact that I wouldn't get a deposit back that concerns me that much, it's the fact he's using the money I'm giving him to get started.  Like Sir Ian said, I don't want to drop that kind of money and get it lost because of "unforseeables."  I've been around that type of thing before with body work on a car, drove me absolutely bonkers, and required a court order just to get my car back.  The scariest part was this was a bigger body shop with a very good reputation.  I don't want to be involved with something like that ever again.

It also makes sense what you all have told me.  For my custom orders, it's 25% down, then three equal payments thereafter or something to that effect, it just doesn't get sent out until it's paid for.  Also, I can understand where swords are a bit "special" minus very custom work, again like Sir James had said, it's always pretty easy to sell a gun.

Thanks everyone.  I just wanted to double check before I proceeded.  And after getting the quote from him, I'm now going to ask Albion and A&A.  Thanks again!

[Ian]

Who is the smith?  Is it someone we may have heard of?  For example, if his name rhymes with Fangus Clim, then stay away for now

[B. Patricius]

Sir Ian,

I doubt it, he's a small guy here in Arizona.  If y'all have heard of him and he does as he says, than that would be sweet!  I like he's a small shop, let alone that he's local, and he's excited about my project because it's a historical piece.  Here's his website: http://www.hellfireforge.net/ and http://hellfireforge.deviantart.com/ and here's the two swords that got me interested enough in him to contact him:



Like I've said previously.  I'm excited by the price, and I'm glad he's excited to do the work.  I just wanted to touch bases on the other parts I was concerned with, where it seems the 50% down non-refundable is normal.  I just want to make sure I'm getting my sword out of the deal. 

My design idea is up above btw

[Ian]

...and he's excited about my project because it's a historical piece. 

This is huge.  A craftsman who's genuinely excited to work on a custom project is a craftsman you want doing your custom project.  Some makers get tired out and aren't that enthusiastic and it comes through in their work.  A guy who's stoked to do a custom project (especially if you let them utilize their artistic creativity within the bounds of your guidelines) then I suspect you'll end up with something you'll love for a lifetime.

[B. Patricius]

...and he's excited about my project because it's a historical piece. 

This is huge.  A craftsman who's genuinely excited to work on a custom project is a craftsman you want doing your custom project.  Some makers get tired out and aren't that enthusiastic and it comes through in their work.  A guy who's stoked to do a custom project (especially if you let them utilize their artistic creativity within the bounds of your guidelines) then I suspect you'll end up with something you'll love for a lifetime.

QFT

Sir Ian, thank you so much.  You basically just said everything I was thinking myself.  His e-mails, although not very professional, definitely show his excitement in the project.  He even sent me links from Albion's site on how they made Arn's sword, which I already knew about, but it's great he wanted to show me he found those as well.  I have a funny feeling we're all (me and Mr. Blackmore) just being a bit paranoid and anal and wanting to make sure the project goes through.  Luckily, I do want this sword.  There's no way I'd back out.  It's taken me the past 20 years of swordsmanship to finally nail down what kind of sword I'd like to have that's a custom piece, and what I'd like on it. 

Here's the gist of what I sent him in my first e-mail:
Here are the requirements I have for my sword
It would be:
Oakeshott Type XI.
type "J" or "K" pommels.

basically it would all be single-hand broadsword of the Crusading Era.  Preferably I would like the swords to period to the First - Third Crusade (ca 1175-1200 or so) era. 

One of the main reasons why I would like to work with you is because I believe it is the small details that make the sword.  My primary inspiration for this sword is the sword from "Arn: The Knights Templar" movie
Here are the details I would like included:

I would like the cross of Jerusalem centered, embossed in the pommel
I would like "DOMINA REGINA VICTORIA" on one blade face in the fuller
I would like "DOMINE NON SUM DIGNUS" on the other blade face in the fuller
I would like "CRUX SACRA SIT MIHI LUX" on the cross guards

All of this I would like to be in a Script like Arn's, a Latin of some form, with those "dots" between the words
    *basically I would like the script in the same manner as Arn's sword, not acid etched, but embossed.  This is above and beyond my knowledge on how this was done.  I hope it isn't too much trouble.

and here's the gist of his response:
"Id be happy to take on your project, it would be refreshing to get to do a period piece. Ive been doing a lot of fantasy pieces lately and it would be good to work on something based in reality for a change. " 

He also said since the guard and pommel would be cast it would be easy to later make a cutting functional sword too.  Also, just in case something catastrophic happened to the guard or pommel, since my first one is for re-enactment, that it would be easy for him to re-cast the guard and pommel for me again in case they did break.

Thanks again everyone for helping me with my worries.  I've done a lot, a lot of custom pieces, both as the artist and as the customer.  I've been through the ups and downs and I just want this to go smoothly.  Also, my lady says continually, that I always worry too much.  But I've basically survived because of my "prepare for the worst, hope for the best."

Mr. Blackmore is also really excited that I want to do a full review of the weapon on MyArmoury when it's completed (as it seems re-enactment blades are scarce), post it on facebook (both of us), and have him post it on deviantart.  I want him to succeed too.  I always root for the small shop.

Thanks again

also, I almost forgot.  I need help with the pommel choice.  I want to make sure it's accurate to the type of blade and era.  Basically the early crusades, preferably the Third and soon thereafter.  Is the type "J" or "K" found on Type XIs?  I've looked everywhere and have only found a "maybe."  I was wondering if others have had better luck.  I don't mind the acorn pommel, I'm just concerned how that would look with the Cross of Jerusalem on it.

the Darksword "Norman" has the type "J/K" pommel on it.  I don't know which of those for sure it is, sorry.

[Sir Edward]

I think most of the evidence we have is that the J/K type "disc" or "wheel" pommels didn't start appearing until the mid-13th Century, though we have to remember, that's based on extant surviving pieces (and artwork), so it doesn't necessarily preclude them from having been invented sooner.

The safest bet is of course the ones we know existed at the time, such as the "brazil nut" pommels, and some of the more angular/lozenge shaped ones like the type "F" (though I think those are more rare).

[B. Patricius]

I think most of the evidence we have is that the J/K type "disc" or "wheel" pommels didn't start appearing until the mid-13th Century, though we have to remember, that's based on extant surviving pieces (and artwork), so it doesn't necessarily preclude them from having been invented sooner.

Thanks Sir Edward.  That was kind of what I was thinking too.  I'm going to do a TON of research on the pommel before I give him the final "ok" on the pommel choice.

Thanks everyone again!

[Sir James A]

...and he's excited about my project because it's a historical piece. 

This is huge.  A craftsman who's genuinely excited to work on a custom project is a craftsman you want doing your custom project.  Some makers get tired out and aren't that enthusiastic and it comes through in their work.  A guy who's stoked to do a custom project (especially if you let them utilize their artistic creativity within the bounds of your guidelines) then I suspect you'll end up with something you'll love for a lifetime.

^ this, very much this. Also the fact that he's local - that makes it a whole lot easier if something did go south and you had to take him to small claims court or get reimbursement. It's not like dealing with Europe or China. I'm still working on getting back $200 I was screwed out of by an order from China back in November, which looks nearly hopeless.

[B. Patricius]

That is very true also Sir James.  Excellent point if the project does go south.  We'll see, since now after talking with everyone here, I'm pretty close to sold on letting Mr. Blackmore have a crack at it. His craftsmanship shown looks excellent, there's another pic of a flamberged great sword balancing on a stake.  I just wish I could find it again to show you all, definitely counts as Medieval Pron in my book!  I'm looking forward to letting him have a go at it now.  Again, thank you all for your help.

*edit:
Aha!!

yeah, it's purdy

[Sir Edward]

Excellent. I can't wait to see some progress pics!