Finally received my riveting tool

[Sir Ulrich]

Yes it's the same one, I still havent cut any rings. I'm unsure of how to tailor it cause I didnt realize the sleeves tapered until I counted the amount of rings, now i'm unsure of how to avoid the armpits.. It might look a bit "bright" but it's actually a dull grey thats just the cam making it look rather bright.

[Sir William]

Maybe you won't need to tailor it at all...I have seen examples of leather straps/thongs used to bring the maille closer to the arm- wouldn't that be swift if that was all that was needed?  It won't work with my current hauberk as the lower on the arm you go, the more blowsy it gets; so I cut the sleeve a few inches below the elbow to help mitigate that somewhat.  Yours actually looks like a size I could work with that wouldn't require much in the way of tailoring.

I really need to talk to the CaP guys to find out how close to my size this thing will be.  I also note that no one else I know has one of these so it might be worthwhile to pick up and let you guys have a gander at it.

[Sir James A]

Sir James, I'll settle for your thoughts on each- what're your observations?  How about the pricing between the two?

I also happen to like the C-a-P stuff because even with shipping it'll be less than $750 ($680 for the hauberk by itself) all told.  Hmm...just found a similar one from Icefalcon for $595, your thoughts?

http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon/medium-chainmail-hauberk-ff8081811ba39277011cf67673e52581-p.html

That might not be what I'm looking for now that I look further...this appears to be of their pin-riveted lineup; if I'm going to spend that kind of money, I want a more historical presentation.

Looks similar to mine, I'm not 100% sure since I went with stainless. Oh, forgot I have a coif too - I think it's GDFB mild. KOA (where I got the GDFB mail) was something like $80 more for the mild wedge riveted haubergeon vs mild pin; not too bad. However, the IceFalcon hauberk in XL is $1095 for stainless pin, and $1495 for stainless wedge; I couldn't justify that amount of price difference on it for wedge, especially with wedge riveted being the wrong style for a Templar impression (early Teutonics .. yes .. since they're german) ... and since I'm a Templar recruit....

On that note, regarding historical presentation, pin riveted is more prevalent than wedge and wedge never really replaced pin either. And they're both equally bad modern recreations. Wedge started to come about around mid 13th century-ish (if I remember right) for german, and later 13th/early 14th for other areas/styles. Prior to that, it's almost exclusively pin riveted. (Ref: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=187600 - good thread to read).

Pin riveted is more "universal" in timespan, but might be rough on arming garments depending on the material (both mail and cloth). I haven't had any trouble with mine over my Revival gambeson, but that's just fooling with it around the house and for testing the tailoring thus far - and I also split the hauberk and haubergeon in the front fully so I can put it on like a shirt instead of overhead. Since the mail moves pretty fluidly with you when even half-tailored, I think most of the abrasion comes from trying to slide it on, especially when it catches on itself and bunches and you have to tug at it. Make sure you wear the dome-head on the inside, with the peened/rough edge outward, I know you know that, but I mention it for anyone else reading the thread who might not.

If you're planning to do chausses, I haven't seen wedge riveted chausses yet. My inner OCD screamed at me to get pin riveted so that the harness would match, so if that's a concern you should check around for wedge chausses.

If the Cap-a-Pie is $680 for a wedge riveted hauberk .. that seems pretty good, especially if they do any tailoring with it. I've never seen any of their mail, but I've never seen anyone say anything bad about it either. I don't think IceFalcon offers mild wedge riveted, so if you want to go for that, it knocks him out as a possibility.

[Sir William]

That's interesting about the time frame of the wedge riveted; also I mentioned getting one simply because I have never had one.  I've had two riveted hauberks, both of them are pin-riveted and I've had no issues with my clothes or hands or skin being damaged, but I've probably been pretty lucky in that I put it on the correct way, domeheads down (thank you for the reminder though, Sir James, I never articulated it as such, mostly tell myself to not be a dumbass and put it on wrong lol).

Seeing as I as yet have been unable to break into the 14thC like I want to, I'm going to stay in the 12th for the nonce, maybe a slight edging into the 13th but by and large, I'm in the 12th.  Hence the desire for another, better hauberk.  Key word being 'another'.  lol

The other riveted hauberk I had was one of those ebaY ones out of India; it wasn't that bad but it was very oily and lighter than I thought it'd be.

CaP's pin-riveted hauberk is $480; with the round riveted coif at $120 I'm looking at $600, not including shipping.  Wedge-riveted what?  lol

I was flirting with the possibility of forgoing the coif and going with a maille standard- when did those start appearing?  They offer them on CaP's website for ~$75...if I were to go with a barrel helm I could just have the standard and pad that helm for my head and a linen coif.  Or should I go with the maille coif instead?

Also:

If you're planning to do chausses, I haven't seen wedge riveted chausses yet. My inner OCD screamed at me to get pin riveted so that the harness would match, so if that's a concern you should check around for wedge chausses.

CaP has those too: 

Here's the actual link to them: http://www.capapie.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_70&product_id=92

[Sir James A]

I like that word, 'another'. More mail! More armor!!!

I was flirting with the possibility of forgoing the coif and going with a maille standard- when did those start appearing?  They offer them on CaP's website for ~$75...if I were to go with a barrel helm I could just have the standard and pad that helm for my head and a linen coif.  Or should I go with the maille coif instead?

I'm going to stay in the 12th for the nonce, maybe a slight edging into the 13th but by and large, I'm in the 12th.

My understanding is mail standards were around the transitional period, when a coif wouldn't be worn under the helm. Italians still used similar on their armets late into the white harness period, by attaching the mail standard directly to the bottom of the armet itself. For a mail harness, with simple cops and maybe gutter plates, I think you'd want to go with the coif. Some of the artwork has that style of armor with the helmet off, and a full coif. Most barrel / great helm styles are early/mid 13th century and on, unless you go with the "half helm" style with the full front face plate like the early crusaders had (and probably a few other styles). Nothing conical, I'd say.

As far as comfort, while sitting around with the helmet off, the coif gives a more "full mail" appearance for the onlookers. And helmets all day long can get uncomfortable. That's just style talking though.

I was flirting with the possibility of forgoing the coif and going with a maille standard- when did those start appearing?  They offer them on CaP's website for ~$75...if I were to go with a barrel helm I could just have the standard and pad that helm for my head and a linen coif.  Or should I go with the maille coif instead?

CaP has those too: 

Here's the actual link to them: http://www.capapie.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_70&product_id=92
[/quote]

Cool! They're just slightly less expensive than the pin riveted stainless, nice to see somewhere offering them though, I'll add that to my mental inventory. I'm quite partial to "wash and wear mail" since it takes time and effort to clean; tried the cement mixer w/sand (aka "electric squire and barrel), and it didn't live up to what I expected, even after running for hours. Might have been the sand, or oil, or I'm just too picky.

Edit: I *love* this site as a reference: http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm - granted, it starts at 1300, a good century ahead of the 13th century, but anything highly popular in 1300 would be at the apex of armor tech in the early 13th century / 1200s. There's no neck specifics; with head defenses of 1300 being almost completely mail, I'm extrapolating on justifying the mail standard logic.

[Sir William]

I figured as much, which is why I asked here because I know you or one of us would know.  I like the idea of a maille standard but that's just for comfort's sake.  I'll go with the coif/haubergeon setup I got set on my wish list, along with loose rings, rivets and a tool.  Even with all that it is still less than $600 all told and all coming from the same person so if there's a problem, one stop shop.

Think I'll cheat and go with a kneecop/greave setup instead of maille chausses; might sew some extra mail onto my pants (temporarily) for the upper thighs to give it that look.  Looking to get an elbow cop/bracer setup as well.  Any suggestions?  I might ask Allan to do it.

[Sir James A]

I'd check with Allan on it, I'm sure he could do them (if he has time), he did a set of floating vambraces for me.

You could make some "cheater chausses" from the spare ring leftovers.

[Sir William]

The cheater chausses is precisely what I plan on doing; you know what's funny is that I have some spare squares of rings from my current hauberk when I cut the sleeves down.