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Author Topic: Sword and heater shield.  (Read 44392 times)

SirNathanQ

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Sword and heater shield.
« on: 2011-08-11, 14:02:09 »
Sword and heater shield. I know we have no existing period material for it, but has anyone tried reverse engineering material from other schools? Like side sword and sword and buckler, or messer?
any results or observations?
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Sir William

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #1 on: 2011-08-11, 15:48:27 »
You're speaking the lingo of the 'sword and board' crowd...as you say, no real period material concerning it, but the SCA has turned it into a semi-art form.  Common sense and imagination being what it is, I would be surprised if they were too far wide of the mark in how such a fighting style was used in period.  The heater shield's shape lends itself to more than a couple offensive moves should the opportunities present themselves.
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Sir Rodney

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #2 on: 2011-08-11, 16:29:54 »
True Ser William, but many have argued that the SCA styles that have evolved over the years also tend to be "game specific" with no documented basis.  This can be a very touchy subject in many circles that has generated monster threads on both myArmoury and the Armour Archive.  I'm completely unschooled in the I.33 arts and thus have no comparative basis.

It seems to me that the basic footwork and strikes taught in various WMA schools would work well with "sword & board".  The SCA standard "head wrap shot" works very well in our game and would seem to work well against unarmoured opponents.  It is my opinion that this strike would only irritate a man wearing a bascinet and cause him to lop off your arm and beat you about the head with it.   ;) ;D
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Sir William

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #3 on: 2011-08-11, 18:02:14 »
Lord Rodney, that's just it- w/out any real documented basis, specific to heater shields, it is up to those of us left behind to figure it out.  I wouldn't be surprised if what came out of SCA ends up being at least historically plausible.

In my humble opinion, such things are possible because as humanity continues to evolve, we get stronger, faster, smarter- the masters who put down their techiques to paper to further the art did so in order for future generations to flower under his teachings...but what can we do when such teachings are absent?

Improvise...and we have proven ourselves quite adept at it, if history is any indicator.
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Sir Edward

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #4 on: 2011-08-11, 18:16:22 »
Yeah, there's very little surviving documentation about heater shield use. I have a feeling they were used more on horseback than on foot, but that's a personal guess. And in terms of using a shield and a lance on a horse, there probably wasn't much worth writing down about the shield.

There's some documentation on sword & rotella (a round shield, like this one from MRL), I think. Presumably much of it can translate over. And it is a bit different than how SCA fighters typically handle it. In the classes I took on it, the shield was used mainly to close off a line of attack, and was held somewhat outstretched.

I think Rodney made a good point about how much the SCA combat has evolved to the SCA's rules. This is only natural, as that will happen in any game. The "wrap shots" are similar to some maneuvers in HEMA, but there's much less reliance on that in a real fight. Partly because doing so requires you to be close and to expose your arm. SCAdians also have the luxury of holding the shield high and leaning back, exposing their lower legs since they're "off target". Also, sometimes the shields are absolutely huge, being made of modern lightweight materials (aluminum). IMHO this becomes a game of who can reach over the other's shield the best. :) Granted, not being an SCA fighter, I'm not an expert on what they do.

But to be fair, there's only so many ways the human body can move, and even through trial-and-error, similarities will develop, just out of what feels efficient to do.
« Last Edit: 2011-08-11, 18:18:22 by Sir Edward »
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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #5 on: 2011-08-11, 19:10:11 »
Hmmm, this discussion has me thinking about a future MASHS free-play session…I have a heater shield and you have a heater shield…maybe we could play around with those instead of the bucklers?  ???
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Sir Edward

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #6 on: 2011-08-11, 19:11:37 »
Hmmm, this discussion has me thinking about a future MASHS free-play session…I have a heater shield and you have a heater shield…maybe we could play around with those instead of the bucklers?  ???

Well, I don't want to bash up the paint on my faire shield. But I can bring the Rotella for sure.
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Sir Brian

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #7 on: 2011-08-11, 19:22:21 »
Hmmm, this discussion has me thinking about a future MASHS free-play session…I have a heater shield and you have a heater shield…maybe we could play around with those instead of the bucklers?  ???

Well, I don't want to bash up the paint on my faire shield. But I can bring the Rotella for sure.

Well it's only paint! Besides don't you think our shields maybe a little too pristine?  ;)
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SirNathanQ

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #8 on: 2011-08-11, 19:35:42 »
Make sure to take a video guys! I would like to see this!

Yes, I personally plan to do SCA one day, and a good bit of what I've seen works, except for the cuts and guards that are SCA tailored. (Iron Chicken, Blocking with a clamshell, dependance on wrap shots, ect)
I think SCA stuff would really translate over well to a mace. No pesky edge alignment with one of those, and the handling isn't as huge of an issue as with a sword (Weighted sticks tend to handle like weighted sticks  ;)
And knights did spend a good part of their time fighting on foot, especially in the 14th century where the full-fledged heater as we know it developed.
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Sir Edward

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #9 on: 2011-08-11, 20:18:10 »
Well it's only paint! Besides don't you think our shields maybe a little too pristine?  ;)

Ugh. Those charges were a pain to do, and they'd scrape right off. I'd rather get a second shield to beat up. :)

Then again, I still have my templar shield. I wouldn't mind beating that one up. It's the one whose photo I used to make the various shield images used as logos on this site (and on the cafepress shop), including the little icon next to the URL in your web browser. :)

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Sir William

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #10 on: 2011-08-11, 20:48:33 »
Hey, Sir Edward...before you use that shield, would you consider selling it?  I could use a shield for my left arm since I now have a sword belted for my right...then I can be equally ungainly with both arms.  lol

I wouldn't use your CoA shields either...they're way too nice.  Get other ones, paint them up and have at it.  :)
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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #11 on: 2011-08-12, 15:42:34 »
Hey, Sir Edward...before you use that shield, would you consider selling it?

I split our discussion off to another thread so we stop derailing this one. Templar shield thread is here: http://modernchivalry.org/forum/index.php/topic,1341.0.html
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Sir William

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #12 on: 2011-08-12, 18:20:53 »
LOL

Good move...sorry Sir Nathan for the thread derailment.
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SirNathanQ

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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #13 on: 2011-08-14, 00:18:29 »
Ahh, no problem at all.  :)
"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect." -Carl Von Clausewitz
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Re: Sword and heater shield.
« Reply #14 on: 2011-08-14, 02:50:20 »
Just a thought here, but has anyone looked at the resources that Law Enforcement agencies and the military use when conducting riot control operations. The shield there (much like the Roman scutum or Norman kite in size at times) as offensive options with smash and trap, along with the manipulation of the baton (sword) in support or being supported.

Just my .02 cents.  :)