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Author Topic: Help on Gothic Harness!  (Read 98308 times)

Sir James A

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #15 on: 2011-05-10, 22:48:46 »
I would personally go with the pauldrons without the haut guards (the pieces sticking up) ... every historical piece of armor, and the very few, that I've seen with those seem to be done as jousting reinforcement plates. I can't recall any foot combat armor with them, and it would be a truly NASTY thing to have on the field ... can you picture someone gently dropping their polearm between the haut guard and your neck, and giving that polearm a nice sideways yank? It's a nice little pivot point for a lever; instant broken neck, since that's the softest thing (between a polearm, steel armor and flesh). As such, they are also illegal in most combat groups, except sometimes as flexible material such as leather, and then only with LARPers. I don't recall seeing any gothic harnesses at all with them, only italian and english styles. But again, just my experiences and readings.

I would also ask Allan if he's willing to do a slight modification to the arm harness. Germans LOVE the point-tie styled arms (http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-31-german-gothic-rerebrace-vambrace-couter.aspx). It is a simple 3-piece set, and each piece is pointed (tied) to the arming coat/gambeson. I have that same set, which I was hoping to have enclosed, and sent the vambraces to Allan at MercTailor. The existing pieces were essentially useless, so I had him make me a whole new two-piece floating vambrace, albeit without fluting. Allan might be willing to make a set of floating arms. He was willing to flute my vambraces, and Allan does REAL fluting with a hammer and chisel - not the bead rolled econo-flutes from the MRL pieces - and I opted to keep the vambraces plain so that the rest of the harness wouldn't look worse in comparison. :)

If you have the funds, you could get the vambrace and rerebrace from Allan (and hopefully he would flute them), and you could buy the MRL gothic arms and use just the elbow cop; though, I would clean up the fluting on it if you can.

If you're handy with a hammer and a dull chisel, you could give it a go at fluting some pieces yourself. The plackard should be especially easy to do since it's so wide ... but absolutely test it out on a number of scrap sheets before putting a hammer to finished armor.

The two most important bits of advice I can really say ... one has been mentioned by Sir Edward already ... "do what makes you happy, since you'll be the one wearing it". The only other advice I can give is that almost no one has ideal plans and follows them set in stone forever, so you can always get started on it, and swap out bits and pieces along the way as you find opportunities to change it to your liking. When I was younger, I wanted a suit of armor, and sans helmet and gauntlets, I'm up to 4 harnesses now.

Once you get one kit almost done ... you're probably going to want another one or three. ;)
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Sir William

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #16 on: 2011-05-11, 19:08:27 »
Amen, Sir James- having only one kit gets old fast- need more diversion!  Seriously, I have a conglomeration of armor pieces that I'll sometimes mix and match for aesthetic reasons, or rather, I WILL from this season on.
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Sir Wolf

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #17 on: 2011-05-11, 19:29:53 »
hehehe tell me about it

Sir William

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #18 on: 2011-05-11, 19:53:08 »
Yea, if anyone would know about that it'd be you, Sir Wolf...or Man-E-Faces if you will.  lol

Used to be one of my favorite He-Man action figures.
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Joshua Santana

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #19 on: 2011-05-11, 20:08:17 »
Thank you Sirs for the additional advice!  This is most helpful!

Sir James:  I will make the change, also another wild idea of mine was to ask Allan is he was willing to flute the arm harness, gauntlets, leg harness, placard breastplate and pauldrons (simple).  I bet he will say no, but it is worth a try (or better yet, the plate breastplate and back plate flutted!) And I will talk to him adding the point tied style arms (I am looking for armor that I can put on myself with assistance, although I read that point tied armor pieces are the type you will need someone to help you tie them)

Sir William: the idea of getting more than one harness was an old plan of mine but I can see there are more fellow Knights who go along with this.  My first plan was getting a german gothic style harness (all plate), an italian style plate harness and a Maximilian style Harness.  All of them composed by arms, legs, breastplates and gauntlets by Merc's Tailors with different helmets from either Therion Arms or from GDFB.

German High Gothic Plate ideas

SCA
http://armstreet.com/store/armor/full-gothic-knight-armor-suit-SCA



http://www.bestarmour.com/armour_1.html
KA 1.1



https://ssl.perfora.net/www.finditarmory.com/sess/utn;jsessionid=154dcae6481f791/shopdata/index.shopscript



http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1470-p-573.html?cPath=101_133



or

http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-german-circa-1480-p-1126.html?cPath=101_133




Italiain Plate Harness

http://historicenterprises.com/armour-full-italoflemish-circa-1471-p-575.html?cPath=101_133





Or on a grand, wilder scheme with Merc's Tailors

Italian Harness

Helmet

either this



or this

http://www.anshelmarms.com/helmets.html



in conjunction with these














or 16th Century Maximilian Style

Helmets

http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1250.html



http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-9316-tudor-close-helm-26-300432.aspx



http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-1634-maximilian-close-helm-ah-3824.aspx



in conjunction with these


(this applies to both Italian and Maximilian harnesses)







also, same gauntlets, greaves and pauldrons might I add.


Now you all can see why this to me is a headache and I think the Maximilian is a lot easier than the italian or german, but like Sir Edward did say, go with what you like.  To tell you the truth:  I LIKE THEM ALL!  I CAN'T MAKE A FINAL DECISION!   



HELP!
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Joshua Santana

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #20 on: 2011-05-11, 20:11:50 »
Another thing I forget

this helmet for the prototype Merc's Tailors Italian Harness (although it is a jousting armet I know but would quallify for an italian armet or maximilian armet!)

Knight of The Lion Blade

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Sir James A

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #21 on: 2011-05-11, 20:34:16 »
You have fantastic taste. I'd do terrible things for those Historic Enterprises harnesses. :)

Have you seen the famous Sigismund of Tyrol harness? That one is the epitome of high gothic - and immense cost to reproduce.

I think Allan might (don't quote me on it!) be willing to do the fluting. From my chats with him, it's more of a lack of time for R&D into new projects that is what he's avoiding. Adding flutework to an existing template wouldn't require any change to the pattern, as far as I know, so it's worth asking about.
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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #22 on: 2011-05-11, 20:46:35 »
It's true that the pointing makes it really hard, if not impossible, to put everything on yourself.

I've put myself into my plate armor once or twice, but that was before I added the points on the top edge of the arms, and before I added the voiders. The upper-arm points would have to be pulled taught and then tied with one hand. The voiders restrict me from bending my elbows somewhat, and it's enough to keep me from being able to get both hands up to the same shoulder to tie on the pauldrons. I could see maybe doing this solo if I made the laces really long, so that I could pull one end with my teeth.    :-\

The buckles at the waist level to hold the breast+back plates together were always very difficult to do by myself, but not impossible, just because of the angle. Same with the buckles on the vambraces, which have to be done one-handed.

Everything below the waist is simple to do by yourself.
« Last Edit: 2011-05-11, 20:48:14 by Sir Edward »
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Joshua Santana

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #23 on: 2011-05-11, 21:13:39 »
Good point Sir Edward, one thing that I blatantly forgot to add is this. 

I myself am designing this harness to serve several functions.  They are for me as a Knight For Hire (yep, it's true!)  and as a HEMA Kit for my studies in the German Medieval Martial Arts.  I wanted a kit that was simple, but good looking and historically accurate with no need for the living historians to roll in their graves due to a single error.  Also as a kit for the SCA, Adrian Empire and Markland.  Yep, I may be crazy but I gotten many requests on Facebook to either attend the meetings or fight practices from all three of the organizations!

So, to make thing a bit easier why not I compare and contrast two potential harness.

I will start with the German Gothic Placard/Brigandine Harness





















Now the Italian Harness


(Ice Falcon Armory)













I hope this helps
Knight of The Lion Blade

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Joshua Santana

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #24 on: 2011-05-12, 11:15:44 »
Another thing I just recalled from last night is GDFB's Venetian Sallet.

This to me, would work perfectly with an Italian Style Harness. 

This would go along with the prototype for the Italian Harness I compiled.



And better yet, I have considered on asking Allan to flute the breast plate, gauntlets, arms, legs and maybe pauldrons with a simple Gothic arch that would be perfect for this helmet!
Knight of The Lion Blade

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #25 on: 2011-05-12, 13:22:08 »

So far I've been pretty pleased with the GDFB helmets. They're not perfect, but they're great for the price. I haven't handled that one in particular, but so far GDFB hasn't disappointed me with their helms.
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Sir William

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #26 on: 2011-05-12, 15:58:07 »
I have a GDFB Phrygian helm (the Normans would've used this helm while fighting in and around the Italian city states or so I'm told) - it is heavy, well made - not the prettiest but serviceable.  I think they're all 14 gauge, at least mine is.  The nasal hangs below my chin which restricts important stuff like drinking and eating so I don't wear it.
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Das Bill

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #27 on: 2011-05-12, 17:49:13 »
Hi Joshua,
I don't know if I'm too late here, but I should point out that most of those Mercenary Tailor pieces are not actually gothic. Some of them don't even go together (such as those gauntlets, which belong on a much later harness).

What I recommend: Don't rely on modern armorer's websites to decide what you want. Look at historical images, look at photos from museums (which can have their own flaws sometimes), and occassionally use modern pieces for inspiration.

While Allan at Merc Tailor is fantastic and one of the best customer service guys in the arms and armor world, bar none, most of his stuff isn't really the high gothic style, even with fluting. I also question the sallet and bevor that they sell. It's based off an original, but I suspect that original is actually a Victorian piece, as I've never seen a sallet that looks like it.
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Joshua Santana

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #28 on: 2011-05-12, 20:20:22 »
No Das Bill you are not too late!

Thank you for the advice and I have been looking at examples from the fechtbuchs in terms of harness styles.

I myself like the German Gothic Armor, but recently with utilizing Merc's Tailor's pieces, I am able to come up with an Italian Style harness that existed in the 15th Century.

Here an example from Paulus Hector Mair



If you look at the previous posts where I posted a jousting armet sold at Ice Falcon Armory, that would work with the armor pieces at Merc's Tailors.

Never the less, thanks for the advice.  As of now I am only planning and designing my harness.
Knight of The Lion Blade

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Joshua Santana

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Re: Help on Gothic Harness!
« Reply #29 on: 2011-05-12, 20:25:08 »
Knight of The Lion Blade

Honora gladium meum, veritas mea, et SpirĂ­tui Sancto.  כדי לכבד המגן שלי, האמת שלי חרבי

Honor My Sword, Truth My Shield.