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Main => The Round Table => Topic started by: LionPride32 on 2013-11-27, 15:28:08
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Hello gents,
I was thinking this morning about three orders that I come across the most when reading about the crusades (3rd mostly, and 1st). What is everyone's thoughts on the Templars, the Hospitallers, and the Tuetonic orders. Well, obviously if you aren't at least SOMEWHAT familiar with the Templars, then life on the moon must be great! I believe the Hospitallers were what the name implies - They ran Hospitals servicing knights and crusaders. All I know of the Tuetonic Order is that they were German..
I'm curious as to what anyone else here thinks about each order. And,
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As far as Crusading Orders go, I think the Hospitallers were the baddest of the bad. I mean come on: wearing a black, woolen cappa (that was at one point long-sleeved) in the hot, Middle Eastern sun? That takes some serious manliness there. ;)
Anyway, yeah, the Hospitallers started out running hospitals, which at that time weren't just for treating sick and injured, but also providing for the poor and for pilgrims. It was essentially a "hospitality house". Eventually, they organized into a military order as well.
The Teutonic Order also had a presence in the Holy Land (I want to say they first organized in the Third[?] Crusade), but they're probably best known for the Northern Crusades against the Baltic Pagans.
You also had the Orders of Santiago and Calatrava, which participated in the Iberian Reconquista.
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Templars created a great system of banking. Tuetonic Knights are still an active order. According to Wikipedia (again, this is jut wikipedia) that they wish to serve the Vatican.
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As far as I have learned the Templars are blamed for every horrible act in history that crusaders did. Not Templars.
They weren't bad, Im sure they may have done bad things that I don't know about but they really didn't do anything that bad.
They are my favorite order as you can see(maybe that is because Gallahed in monty python bore a cross) but I also specialize in them when it comes to knowledge of medieval things.
Templars created a great system of banking. Tuetonic Knights are still an active order. According to Wikipedia (again, this is jut wikipedia) that they wish to serve the Vatican.
Yes they did have banking. but they were also very organized when it came to military tactics and keeping a head count on every member. There were a total of 40,000 templars all over europe when france began to prosecute them. There was a database of how many of the Templars were knight, soldiers, etc. and they had files on every member. I love reading about tactics they would have on the battlefield.
Templars represented power in all areas. They were definitely the strongest of the 3 orders.
The templars last holdout was in scottland, until I heard otherwise from a tourist at the m.d. renfaire telling me they went to an island off the coast of spain. anyone know anything about that?
also learned about the Mongol wars last year, very interesting battles happened.
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Tuetonic Knights are still an active order.
Yep, and so are the Hospitallers, though I think they go by the Order of Malta now. :)
Heh, actually the Order of Santiago is still around as well, and I think the Order of Calatrava lasted until sometime in the 18th or 19th century. It's just the poor Templars that got snuffed out early.
also learned about the Mongol wars last year, very interesting battles happened.
Dan Carlin of Hardcore History did an excellent podcast series about the Mongols. They were seriously scary dudes. The extent of their empire during its height is just astounding.
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Tuetonic Knights are still an active order.
Yep, and so are the Hospitallers, though I think they go by the Order of Malta now. :)
Heh, actually the Order of Santiago is still around as well, and I think the Order of Calatrava lasted until sometime in the 18th or 19th century. It's just the poor Templars that got snuffed out early.
also learned about the Mongol wars last year, very interesting battles happened.
Dan Carlin of Hardcore History did an excellent podcast series about the Mongols. They were seriously scary dudes. The extent of their empire during its height is just astounding.
Poor Templars.
Ya the mongol wars are very unheard of. I remember reading about one battle that took place in modern day Poland were it was 40k of Europeans against 80k of mongols. The mongols had light armor and consisted of mostly archers, extremely organized archer which was what made them deadly because, one report states that they used flags to alert there soldiers to do different tactics and there leaders stayed hidden and did not lead there men into combat. But the Europeans probably would have won this battle because of there heavy cavalry that just mowed threw the Mongols infantry. And France had sent Templars there and teutonics also were present at this battle. But sadly the Europeans lost do to someone shouting retreat on there side and a huge section of the army left and the mongols were able to flank the rest. It is unknown wether it was a Mongolian or a European that shouted it, and who it was. It can be believed that a Mongolian did it to throw the enemy off. And I the chaos of battle no one can really tell.
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Sorry I didn't mean to quote you 3 times lol. It was one of those moments
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The Templars were the "special forces" of the day. They had very strict battle tactics. You didn't leave the battle unless the Templar flag fell. If you did, you were a deserter and other Templars could kill you. There are stories (and some evidence) of Templar battles against the Saracens (or Persians?) in which they were shot, lost hands, lost arms, and otherwise "mortally wounded" but continued to fight for some time. They were the epitome of the "fight to the death" cliche.
The templars last holdout was in scottland, until I heard otherwise from a tourist at the m.d. renfaire telling me they went to an island off the coast of spain. anyone know anything about that?
Knights of Malta, on the isle of Malta. General conspiracy theory that many of the Templars fled and joined the Knights of Malta and "blended in" to avoid capture and further persecution. It's somewhat believable in that the Templars had a fleet of over 100 ships, and when they were captured and put to trial, the total number of ships that were taken is.... none.
However, it's a question of semantics. The Templars were subject only to the pope. The pope disbanded the Templar order. As such, "Templar" order does not exist. Whether or not people who were Templars when the Order existed, and whether or not they escaped capture and took relics/secrets/etc, and where they went, and who their descendants may be, are the things in question.
Sir Nathan is the Teutonic order guru.
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The Templars were the "special forces" of the day. They had very strict battle tactics. You didn't leave the battle unless the Templar flag fell. If you did, you were a deserter and other Templars could kill you. There are stories (and some evidence) of Templar battles against the Saracens (or Persians?) in which they were shot, lost hands, lost arms, and otherwise "mortally wounded" but continued to fight for some time. They were the epitome of the "fight to the death" cliche.
The templars last holdout was in scottland, until I heard otherwise from a tourist at the m.d. renfaire telling me they went to an island off the coast of spain. anyone know anything about that?
Knights of Malta, on the isle of Malta. General conspiracy theory that many of the Templars fled and joined the Knights of Malta and "blended in" to avoid capture and further persecution. It's somewhat believable in that the Templars had a fleet of over 100 ships, and when they were captured and put to trial, the total number of ships that were taken is.... none.
However, it's a question of semantics. The Templars were subject only to the pope. The pope disbanded the Templar order. As such, "Templar" order does not exist. Whether or not people who were Templars when the Order existed, and whether or not they escaped capture and took relics/secrets/etc, and where they went, and who their descendants may be, are the things in question.
Sir Nathan is the Teutonic order guru.
Ya I read that the templars morphed with orders like the hospitallers and teutonics, I did here about the malta thing.
ya 100 ships, thousands of men that werent taken or killed. Ive heard a consipracy theory that they came to america, also there is the theory that the free masons are Templars. I think that is even a rank in the free masons.
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The only current order closest to resembling the traditional Order of the Knights Templar in practice today (after their 1307 demise) is the 'Knights of Christ' (the former Portugal Commandery of the Templar Order). Just thought I would mention that. To associate the Knights Templar with Freemasonry is still presumed (but not necessarily refutable) as many traditions and rituals appear in their methods. It is highly impractical to say they had no influence over them after being disbanded by the Papacy, and found new ways to hide themselves to continue their efforts. I still believe the Templars exist today in their non-traditional forms. Their history is always so intriguing to the masses.
I am one that is convinced the Knights Templars came to America and established themselves here with the expeditions of Prince Henry Sinclair, and possibly even before. I have seen too much of the reported evidence myself being based in New England that to me substantiates the claims. And yes, the Freemasons have a degree rank that encompasses the Templar rite.
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The only current order closest to resembling the traditional Order of the Knights Templar in practice today (after their 1307 demise) is the 'Knights of Christ' (the former Portugal Commandery of the Templar Order). Just thought I would mention that. To associate the Knights Templar with Freemasonry is still presumed (but not necessarily refutable) as many traditions and rituals appear in their methods. It is highly impractical to say they had no influence over them after being disbanded by the Papacy, and found new ways to hide themselves to continue their efforts. I still believe the Templars exist today in their non-traditional forms. Their history is always so intriguing to the masses.
I am one that is convinced the Knights Templars came to America and established themselves here with the expeditions of Prince Henry Sinclair, and possibly even before. I have seen too much of the reported evidence myself being based in New England that to me substantiates the claims. And yes, the Freemasons have a degree rank that encompasses the Templar rite.
The Templars gave maps to Columbus and there is a Templar church in Europe lined with corn far before Europeans had corn. And corn wasn't introduced until 1492
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Ya know, I am currently in the position to become a free mason. All I must do is ask this certain member that I know. He also owns horses to ride so I could also ask him to teach me to ride. And since I am preparing myself for HEMA and getting my equipment together, then join the order of the marshal if accepted, I will be a true knight 😋
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Wow, that's a lot of replies and there's still much to be learned! I plan on buying a book or 2 about the Templars. Any suggestions on good books???
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A good fictional story is "The Last Templar"
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A good fictional story is "The Last Templar"
Id recomend The knights of the black and white by jack whyte, part 1 of a templar trilogy.
Ive started reading them they seem very accurate to life back in the days of Templars
The last Templar is a good book involving Templars, but if you want Historically accurate don't read it.
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"The Brethren" (A book about one of the last templar knights before the exodus of the Order).
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My understanding is that there is no evidence of direct lineage from the Templars to the Freemasons.
What I think is more likely is this... During the 19th century, everything medieval was all the rage, much like it is today. I suspect around that time (plus or minus a century), some inspiration was drawn from it, and possibly some misinterpretation of history, willful or not.
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My understanding is that there is no evidence of direct lineage from the Templars to the Freemasons.
What I think is more likely is this... During the 19th century, everything medieval was all the rage, much like it is today. I suspect around that time (plus or minus a century), some inspiration was drawn from it, and possibly some misinterpretation of history, willful or not.
Is that why poe wrote so many stories during the medieval era and or rennasiance- Other than being well educated.
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My understanding is that there is no evidence of direct lineage from the Templars to the Freemasons.
Mine as well. Lots of theory, lots of extrapolation, and some common features between them.. but no solid links to prove, and nothing solid to disprove.. which makes it ripe for conspiracy theories and suppositions.
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Hypothetical will just have to wait for empirical evidence to catch up I guess.
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Hypothetical will just have to wait for empirical evidence to catch up I guess.
When I join the Masons, I will find the answer, but I would not be able to tell you.
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Hypothetical will just have to wait for empirical evidence to catch up I guess.
I'm actually looking forward to that. I think there is more to it than we see, in large part due to secret societies being good at keeping secrets. :) I've seen a number of things about it (Holy Grail in America, etc) and also have a book on the "Hooked X" (still to read) and how it relates to the Kensington rune stone and such. Fascinating subject, I just hope they figure it out while I'm alive to hear about it.
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Hey Gents,
There is a little something I noticed in "Kingdom of Heaven" that youu may be able to help me with. The tunic that Liam Neeson and later Orlando Bloom wears - it has the iron crosses on it, with mixed/matched red and white colors. I initially thought it was a Templar tunic, but then it shows many other Templars with straight white tunics with one big red cross. Guy and Raynauld are examples. What exactly was the red/white tunic Liam wears supposed to be??
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Hey Gents,
There is a little something I noticed in "Kingdom of Heaven" that youu may be able to help me with. The tunic that Liam Neeson and later Orlando Bloom wears - it has the iron crosses on it, with mixed/matched red and white colors. I initially thought it was a Templar tunic, but then it shows many other Templars with straight white tunics with one big red cross. Guy and Raynauld are examples. What exactly was the red/white tunic Liam wears supposed to be??
I do believe that's meant to represent Ibelin's personal arms. It's actually red and yellow, based on the real-life Ibelin arms, though the yellow on the surcoat is rather pale and faded and looks like an off-white.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Armoiries_Ibelin.svg/150px-Armoiries_Ibelin.svg.png)
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Agreed with Douglas. The Ibelin surcoat from the movie is maroon/yellow and uses the same style cross:
(http://www.southernswords.co.uk/ekmps/shops/southernswords/images/kingdom-of-heaven-ibelin-surcoat-2773-p.jpg)
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Yeah, no solid evidence to support the Templars morphing into the Freemasons through some type of hokey lineage nonsense. The Templars were monks, sworn to celibacy (seriously, they weren't even allowed to touch, or be in the same area alone with a woman). Now anyone who knows the first thing about biology will be able to inform you the problems with claiming a bloodline to a bunch of celibate dudes.
Templar basically joined the Hospitallers, or became Knights of Christ, which was literally the Templar Order with a different name. Nations were usually pretty ok with this kind of thing going on, since they were only found guilty in France, and were found no guilty after they were already disbanded and burned. Awkward.
Ok, short history of the Teutonic Knights.
They were founded during the 3rd crusade at the siege of Acre. At first they were a branch of the Hostipallers, but soon because their own order, meant to blend the Templar's military ferocity and organization with the Hostpitaller's charity, with a unique German flair. They, while maintaing castles and supporting campaigns in Outremer, organized and led the Baltic Crusades against Pagans who were ravaging Poland at the time. They were wildly successful, conquering and holding their own nation state, and becoming powerful enough to rival any European nation. They were undoubtably the most powerful military order, with their own army (which was rather large, even among nations, for the time), diplomats, traders, and chapterhouses throughout Europe in addition to their sovereign state.
At the zenith of their power, they succeeded in their Crusade efforts, and converted the last of the Lithuanian Archdukes in 1389. Shortly after though, they faced a decline as nations (specifically Poland and Lithuania) grew stronger, and united against the Teutonic Order. This, combined with the growing anti-monastic sentiment throughout Europe left the Order without men, and with many enemies. They were eventually driven out of the Baltic in the 16th century, the Livonian Branch being wiped out by Ivan the Terrible in 1545. They were only officially suppressed by Adolf Hitler. After the fall of the 3rd Reich, they were reformed as a religious/charity order, which they function as to this day.
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Correct me if I am wrong, Tuetonic Knights wear a white surcotte with a black cross. Well, how come they were in Kingdom of Heaven? The scene where Orlando gets attacked? Doesn't that movie take place before the Order is formed? Were those not Tuetonics? Is that a movie mistake? Or are they not actually Tuetonics?
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Correct me if I am wrong, Tuetonic Knights wear a white surcotte with a black cross. Well, how come they were in Kingdom of Heaven? The scene where Orlando gets attacked? Doesn't that movie take place before the Order is formed? Were those not Tuetonics? Is that a movie mistake? Or are they not actually Tuetonics?
As far as I know, that's a movie boo-boo. A later scene between Guy and Reynald suggests that they were supposed to be Templars (Don't remember the exact quote, but Reynald says something to the effect of, "and the Templars killed Balian?")
The great helm the one guy's wearing is also way out of date. It's about a century too early, which is odd considering the rest of the movie gets it pretty close as far as armor. I kind of wonder what was going on when they filmed that scene, as that's the only one in the movie where that style of helm appears, and the only scene where the Templars are sporting black crosses. At least the only one that I'm aware of.
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I think we might just have to make a medieval movie critic much like the Nostalgic critic. One that gives ups and downs. One for the forum at least and makes them in video form. Ooo! Maybe he could even demonstrate what people would actually wear! By wearing it! Haha even do some photoshop and correct the movie. That'll never happen. Anyway, so are the supposed to be Templars or Teutonic Knights? Maybe the movie director thought that since some of the Teutonic knights are mercenaries that they were hired to kill the guys. Also The teutonic knights do share some relation with Templars. He may have just gotten some facts mixed up.
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Anyway, so are the supposed to be Templars or Teutonic Knights?
I'm pretty sure they're supposed to be Templars.
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Anyway, so are the supposed to be Templars or Teutonic Knights?
I'm pretty sure they're supposed to be Templars.
We are so respectful to religion here In Jerusalem. We kill Templars for killing innocent people. Hang them In public.
Wait one moment I've just received a pigion letter. Don't hang the Templars in public you will be assassinated#haggistag#templars
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Morning gents,
Excellent responses to my question! I didn't know the Ibelins (se?) Were a real order/family...? And thank yoi Sir NathanQ for the info about the orders, especiallly the Teutonics Knights! I gotta get my swrod swinging butt in gear and post my pics of my gear n get-up, including my Tuetonic Gen2 dagger!
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Morning gents,
Excellent responses to my question! I didn't know the Ibelins (se?) Were a real order/family...? And thank yoi Sir NathanQ for the info about the orders, especiallly the Teutonics Knights! I gotta get my swrod swinging butt in gear and post my pics of my gear n get-up, including my Tuetonic Gen2 dagger!
Indeed! I would love to have a peek at what you have!
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No problem, always happy to talk about the Teutonic Order! :)
Also, yes, that scene in Kingdom of Heaven was a mistake, and they were meant to be Templars, who apparently got some future surcotes and helmets. Must have been an executive decision on Ridley's part...
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No problem, always happy to talk about the Teutonic Order! :)
Also, yes, that scene in Kingdom of Heaven was a mistake, and they were meant to be Templars, who apparently got some future surcotes and helmets. Must have been an executive decision on Ridley's part...
Maybe they were time travelers? Got mixed up with some time bandits possibly.
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Yes! Time-travelling Templars! Because...alliteration. 8)
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No problem, always happy to talk about the Teutonic Order! :)
Also, yes, that scene in Kingdom of Heaven was a mistake, and they were meant to be Templars, who apparently got some future surcotes and helmets. Must have been an executive decision on Ridley's part...
Costume Guy: Hey, director dude, GDFB says they only have 80 of the "Templar" surcoats in stock. But they have 20 "Two-tonics" that we could buy too.
Director Dude: Okay so what's the difference?
Costume Guy: They said it's almost all the same and just a black cross instead of a red one.
Director Dude: What are our other options?
Costume Guy: Ask your mom to sew us the other 20 we need.
Director Dude: It's a short scene, get the two-ton-whatever, it's close enough.
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Add a scene where Director Dude Ridley orders approximately all the flags and adds 5 more scenes of various medieval Catholic Church figures being horrible people, and you have a working summary of the making of Kingdom of Heaven.
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Haha I am currently watching it :D
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Add a scene where Director Dude Ridley orders approximately all the flags and adds 5 more scenes of various medieval Catholic Church figures being horrible people, and you have a working summary of the making of Kingdom of Heaven.
It is ironic that the two religions at the center of the Crusades both preached love and forbearance for their fellow man, but neither of those were ever really understood or practiced by either side.
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At least they got the feel for Saladin correct. There was a reason he & Richard became one of histories great rivalry of equals.
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At least they got the feel for Saladin correct. There was a reason he & Richard became one of histories great rivalry of equals.
That was my one problem with Arn, Saladin was just, He showed some mercy, but One thing that bothered me was that he was muslim and Ive heard historians say he was a kurb. I don't know what that is but its not muslim.(I have no problem with any other religion, Just accuracy to history)
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Saladin was both. Kurdish is an ethnic group whereas Muslim/Islamic is a religion. If someone's a Kurd, that just means he comes from areas like Syria, Iraq, and Iran.
Like how you have English and French, but they were both still Catholic at that time. :)
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Add a scene where Director Dude Ridley orders approximately all the flags and adds 5 more scenes of various medieval Catholic Church figures being horrible people, and you have a working summary of the making of Kingdom of Heaven.
It is ironic that the two religions at the center of the Crusades both preached love and forbearance for their fellow man, but neither of those were ever really understood or practiced by either side.
The situation was a fair bit more complicated than that. Both sides had deep and legitimate reasons for waging war in the name of God.
In fact you will find these principles are applied outside of the context of active warfare. Muslim and Christian lived side by side (literally) without violent incident in cities controlled by either religion.
Also, Douglas is right on the money regarding Saladin's Kurdish lineage. It's an ethnicity, nothing more.
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Saladin was both. Kurdish is an ethnic group whereas Muslim/Islamic is a religion. If someone's a Kurd, that just means he comes from areas like Syria, Iraq, and Iran.
Like how you have English and French, but they were both still Catholic at that time. :)
It all makes Sense now.
So I guess Arn is the most accurate thing we have on screen about the crusades.
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Is it truly brother? Who are you so wise?
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Add a scene where Director Dude Ridley orders approximately all the flags and adds 5 more scenes of various medieval Catholic Church figures being horrible people, and you have a working summary of the making of Kingdom of Heaven.
Great point. Catholic Church=Bad Anything in opposition to Catholic Church=Good
It gets so old. :(
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Add a scene where Director Dude Ridley orders approximately all the flags and adds 5 more scenes of various medieval Catholic Church figures being horrible people, and you have a working summary of the making of Kingdom of Heaven.
Great point. Catholic Church=Bad Anything in opposition to Catholic Church=Good
It gets so old. :(
Maybe it's directors and writers opinions rubbing off in story.