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Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Ian on 2013-09-21, 17:24:12
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Back in May I ordered a replacement to my Historic Enterprises breastplate. The HE one is made to order, but sized off the rack so it's not quite a custom fit and it was always too big for me. It was too wide across and too tall, so the weight of it sat on my iliac crest, which is quite painful after a while. Anways, I always wanted a globose with a fauld since they were starting to appear in the 2nd half of the 14th century and give you that nice tight waisted silhouette so prevalent in the effigies of the time period.
Jeff Wasson created this beauty for me and promised delivery prior to DoK, and it just came in this morning. 1050 Hardened and tempered spring steel, criss-crossing shoulder straps in the back and a waist strap. Fits great, looks great, moves great, couldn't be any happier with it. Can't wait to kit up with it for DoK!.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3773/9857901113_e34861bedb_c.jpg)
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That is damn spiffy! :D
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Sweeeet!
I'll be sure to bring some extra oily rags to clean up any drooling I may get on it at DoK! :)
So...what are you doing with your old plate? ???
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I'm going to sell the HE breastplate. Interested? :) It's their standard large, measurements are here (http://historicenterprises.com/arms-and-armour-c-101/armour-late-14th-century-c-101_137/breastplate-italian-c13601415-spring-steel-p-710.html). It's painted on the inside, and the paint is a little scuffed around the edges from wearing it. I did trim the waist strap a bit, but that's all I've done.
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Yes I'm interested alas I'm too big for it! :(
*sigh* I guess I'll have to make that CoP after all. :-\
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ohhhh thats so nice
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Dang, I haven't recently measure myself in the kit. When I get a chance to get some measurements, I'll have to see.
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you need to add that lil triangle crotch piece hehehe
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you need to add that lil triangle crotch piece hehehe
I intentionally didn't want that. I think it's hideous.
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That's a really nice looking piece of wyte right there. ;D
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Excellent! Congrats.
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Here she is being worn at DoK 2!
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/10302300676_17ac909ebf_c.jpg)
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Man, that is awesome!!! It really looks fantastic.
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Agreed. Like it with the new poleaxe.
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That is sleek!! Really nice kit you have there.
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We need to get you and Christian Cameron together for some photos.
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Huzzah for plate! Very awesome picture!!
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Looking superb, Sir Ian! You truly are an exemplar for any hopeful late 14th century types!
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Thanks guys! Bob Charrette was helpful in pointing me to what I need to work on to make some improvements, so I'm trying to work my way back on to Jeff Wasson's schedule for some work in a few months. I am hoping to replace my sabs with some more historically correct ones, and then I will be happy with all my hard kit pieces. Eventually I will need to replace my jupon with a more accurate interpretation and obtain a plaque belt. I think I'm going to bite the bullet and place an order with Lorifactor for a plaque belt in my heraldic colors of Argent and Sable... ;D
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Awesome! Yeah, Bob is always good for some advice.
What's wrong with your sabatons? I thought they looked pretty good.
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The method of construction and fastening of the heel on my sabs is ahistoric. Instead of building a hinge, he just floated the heel/foot interface on a piece of leather. Halberds also used modern (aluminum I think) grommets for the toe pointing holes, and the top opening is too large and not closely fitted to the ankle so they wind up outside the bottom of the greaves. I didn't know enough about sab construction when I ordered them 3 years ago and so when I asked for historically accurate, I just didn't know any better and assumed it was good to go. The general shaping is just a little off too.
They should have a metal hinge construction to attach the heel plate, and then a small leather strap to secure the other side, though some examples seem to use a small hook/clasp assembly on the side opposite the hinge. The top of the sabaton must interface with the greaves and provide seamless coverage between the top of the sab and the bottom of the greave while not impeding movement. The sab should be inside the greave, not the other way around.
They should look like this:
(http://www.wassonartistry.com/images/armor/limbdefenses/DSCN0919.JPG)
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That's interesting about the sabaton construction. I must make a mental note of that in case I ever get around to making something other than helms.
When you say a leather strap to secure the other side, would it be secured with a buckle?
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When you say a leather strap to secure the other side, would it be secured with a buckle?
Yes, you can see it here:
(http://www.medievalrepro.com/Images/sab99.jpg)
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Well dang, then I guess I shouldn't order sabs from the same place you got yours. :)
I don't mind cheating a little, as long as I know why/how it's cheating. But might as well aim for as accurate as possible once you know better.
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Ah, okay. I see. Thank you!
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Well dang, then I guess I shouldn't order sabs from the same place you got yours. :)
I don't mind cheating a little, as long as I know why/how it's cheating. But might as well aim for as accurate as possible once you know better.
Halberds does good work, and he's pretty much specialized into and known for his sabatons, but he caters to the SCA as far as I know, so I suspect that the research into construction is not as exacting as the guys who cater to very accurate historical reproduction. My goal is to one day not have to explain why any piece of my armor may not be as accurate as we can get it in the modern day, so I'm really just being very nitpicky with the sabs.
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I'd say you could replace the leather with a hand made hinge, but that still doesn't take care of the ankle/heel area. That's one thing that I had a hard time getting satisfactory too. The "churburg" sabatons by GDFB are more or less hopeless at my skill level. The ones I got from Mad Matt were pretty good, though it's more coincidence that they happened to fit well with my HammerBreaker greaves. I ordered them unstrapped and unhinged so I could do it myself and trim off any extra in the back so the heel plate would sit close to the back of my foot. They make that nice "pocket" effect where the sabs sit right inside of the greaves, as you're describing.
Found a good pic of a view from the bottom and side too:
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/293921_4772972958889_2042355010_n.jpg)
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My God James, you mean your wife let you seat that oily plate on the living room couch?!? Must have left quite the stain.. Oh wait, that isn't oil, is it??? LOL
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My God James, you mean your wife let you seat that oily plate on the living room couch?!? Must have left quite the stain.. Oh wait, that isn't oil, is it??? LOL
Pfft, oil? Eh. I think my wife took that pic? Anyways, it was the riveted mail fauld that left a few holes in the cushions. Flipped 'em over, no big deal. Still less furniture damage than the cats cause. ;)
I didn't have any other decent shots of those sabs & greaves together, as I just got those greaves a year ago.
We're wandering a bit. Should we split this thread to sabatons / accuracy?
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James, for 16th century have you considered getting those big bear paw square-toed sabs for your kit?
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oooooooooooooooooooooooooo those would look awesome
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James, for 16th century have you considered getting those big bear paw square-toed sabs for your kit?
Definitely! They would be more accurate to the time frame of my harness, and that's a great idea. It's on my list of near future upgrades to make. I've only found one place that makes them, which is overseas, and I have never ordered from. One other style I'd really love to get my hands on is the ones with the sabatons integrated into the greaves (http://www.forgeofsvan.com/en/Leg-defenses/Greaves-with-sabatons/Detailed-product-flyer.html (http://www.forgeofsvan.com/en/Leg-defenses/Greaves-with-sabatons/Detailed-product-flyer.html)), but this is the only place I've found that makes them, and the verbiage sounds like it is a repro and not made to measure.
I may ask Mad Matt if he'd make me a set, since he made my current ones, and just make the same but with a different, squared end cap. Only thing I want to do prior to that is come up with a way that I'm happy with my fauld (3rd iteration, still not happy), and then voiders.
Do you know of anywhere that makes the square toed version that isn't out of my price range? Wasson and Hedgecock most likely are, as I'm just going for mild steel, since it would match the rest of the harness. Other than the end cap, sabatons seem to be a reasonably easy piece to make (given that I can reverse engineer the pattern from mine), and I may have a go at making a pair or two myself.
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Back on the books with Jeff for the sabs! And in other news... I finally did it... placed the order with Lorifactor for a proper plaque belt!
James, the forge of svan sabs do not look right. The square toed sabs of the early 16th century don't have sharp edges like that. They are straight across the leading edge, but otherwise very rounded. The toe should be much fuller. I don't know of any production armorers that make them, but I would inquire with Jeff Hildebrandt at Royal Oak (http://royaloakarmoury.com/index.php) if I were you and get a quote. He's pretty reasonable from what I understand and he does outstanding work. He's easily on par with the other Jeffs from what I can tell. He will work in mild or heat treated spring as far as I know.
You would also be wearing spurs that attach directly to the back of the greave or sab, they wouldn't be strapped on at all.
(http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN00393/AN00393690_001_l.jpg?width=304)
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1085/1352747119_a5b4de4ed9_z.jpg?zz=1)
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As far as I can tell, the Forge of Svan pictures in the link I posted are of the actual original piece from a private collection, and not their repro. I'm not sure which harness it goes with, or if it's just a one-off piece without harness. The pics you posted are great. Those are the ones I'm used to seeing with that fuller rounded toe. I question how good of an idea that is from an equestrian perspective and trying to get a wider object through the stirrup, but that's another subject and I have no horsemanship skills, nor horse, so if it's historically correct, I'm happy.
Congrats on the new sabatons and the plaque belt! Definitely want to see pics of both of those when they arrive!
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Ian, I was doing some google image searching and the picture of your cuirass popped up from this thread. I just noticed, the fauld lames all underlap each other, instead of overlap. I'm sure you or Wasson had a historical source for this. I'm curious what it is?
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From Jeff's research, underlapping is consistent with earlier faulds, while overlapping became the predominant method later in the 15th century.
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From Jeff's research, underlapping is consistent with earlier faulds, while overlapping became the predominant method later in the 15th century.
Time for some brain work on why they changed over and how it affects movement. :D Thanks!
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Here James, dated to the last quarter of the 14th century from the Pistoia silver altarpiece, an example of an underlapping fauld on a breasplate. The bottom photo is the documented use of the strapping configuration on my copy:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Cg6SElD4fsA/UnoMMsl2_8I/AAAAAAAABTw/Y8owNntZ4gE/w514-h685-no/IMG_7076.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WrJMWMHTmbg/UnoLe7q0aII/AAAAAAAABjA/YmGYch0PKpA/w913-h685-no/IMG_7068.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lxzGLjSJOwQ/UnoQIZiOgGI/AAAAAAAABX0/s3pMgKSI4TI/w913-h685-no/IMG_7110.JPG)
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Hey Ian, Jeff Hildebrandt is working on a similar breastplate with fauld for me now, and we've been discussing how to attach the fauld historically. So I'm curious, how did Jeff Wasson attach yours?
Scott
PS:
My new Galaxy Note 3 doesn't want to call you "Sir Iran" like my old phone. Cheers!
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Hey Ian, Jeff Hildebrandt is working on a similar breastplate with fauld for me now, and we've been discussing how to attach the fauld historically. So I'm curious, how did Jeff Wasson attach yours?
Scott
PS:
My new Galaxy Note 3 doesn't want to call you "Sir Iran" like my old phone. Cheers!
I'm glad to hear that I'm once again American :)
The fauld lames are floated on three leathers and fixed with rivets.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3926/15171423942_896d04776d_c.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5568/15168799551_47f18fb907_c.jpg)
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Hard to believe they had all that articulation skill and noone thought up a backplate until the 15th century. Sad. ???
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Hard to believe they had all that articulation skill and noone thought up a backplate until the 15th century. Sad. ???
I guess that would be dictated by how picky you are on the definition of 'backplate.' They had multi-plate or segmented back defense in the 14th century. Every now and then an effigy or manuscript gives us a glimpse of a side hinge on a breastplate. The problem is that until the early 15th century everyone covered up their armor, so we can't see! But a definitive single piece backplate? 1st half of the 15th.
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Thanks Sir Ian!
Now, about that weird lobster-tail articulated thing on the bottom of the helmet or upper back of that guy... never noticed it before, and never seen that kind of thing on the upper back. It's like the triangular fauld teleported...
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(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Cg6SElD4fsA/UnoMMsl2_8I/AAAAAAAABTw/Y8owNntZ4gE/w514-h685-no/IMG_7076.JPG)
guy looks liek he's totally like "Gurllllllllllllllll, oh no you ditaint"
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guy looks liek he's totally like "Gurllllllllllllllll, oh no you ditaint"
LOL, I will never look at the Pistoia Altarpiece the same way again
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"doesnt Sir Geoffrey look FAB-U-lishous in his new hosen? hmmmmmm umm scrumsious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" lol hehehe mission accomplished
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Sir Wolf’s got me worried! ;)
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"doesnt Sir Geoffrey look FAB-U-lishous in his new hosen? hmmmmmm umm scrumsious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" lol hehehe mission accomplished
That gambeson is soooooo last century!
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Ian, your kit is one of my largest inspirations and I'm actually about to copy you with a similarly styled breastplate. I'll see which armourer I'm going with (my favourite and local one is backed up for a few months). Living in Europe does suck sometimes, since Jeff Wasson's quite a bit away ;) There are some good ones and the emails have gone out.
But yes, this is a drop dead gorgeous breastplate and I'm loving your overall look.
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Thank you very much! If I can be of any assistance please just ask. What armorers are you looking at? I just recently placed an order in Poland for a new piece.
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If I can't get my local favourite, I'm currently looking at St George Armoury (http://www.stgeorgearmoury.co.uk/ (http://www.stgeorgearmoury.co.uk/)) and a Swedish Armourer I've had recommended to me as well as at least looking to get a quote from Albert Collins, but I doubt I'll be able to afford that.
There are, of course, other amazing artists such as Radoslaus (https://www.facebook.com/pages/wwwRADOSLAUSpl/182128588494685 (https://www.facebook.com/pages/wwwRADOSLAUSpl/182128588494685)) whom I have also asked for a quote.
It will be interesting to see what answers I get from the different armourers, which one fits my vision more and if I'll go for one now or if I'll wait for Martin Merkel to complete a few orders.
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Thank you very much! If I can be of any assistance please just ask. What armorers are you looking at? I just recently placed an order in Poland for a new piece.
Don't tease us. What piece??
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Well, a few from different walks of armouring life.
Some Swedish ones, however, they're either backed up or have stopped taking orders (one has only sorta stopped but is thinking about it so I'll keep his name out of it for now.)
St George Armoury, he'll see about a spring steel price (would need a welded construction since he can't get a piece big enough in the Uk without massive costs). Otherwise I'm thinking 18 gauge stainless would do fine for the intents and purposes.
Now... these are all good (or good enough with a low price point).
But there's one more guy I emailed.
And he replied.
And I can get to him for fittings.
He's given me a very rough ballpark estimate and yes, it's not impossible (at a conflict with my wanted guantlets since it's about the same price point).
I'm waiting for a second reply from him.
But it seems I am at least a baby step closer to owning an Albert Collins breastplate.
www.viaarmorari.com (http://www.viaarmorari.com)
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Via Armorari's stuff is absolutely phenomenal. I use to just go through their photo gallery over and over just drooling...