ModernChivalry.org
Main => The Armoury => Topic started by: Joshua Santana on 2012-04-25, 21:31:54
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As you know of my research in the Renaissance, I decided recently to create a 16th Century Kit.
I am seeing this kit to be unique in that it copies of the style of armour that we see in these pictures and it is a combination of a harness and a soft kit.
Shown here:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/files/blog_images/avenicedeyoung1110.jpg (http://www.sfexaminer.com/files/blog_images/avenicedeyoung1110.jpg)
http://images.artnet.com/images_US/magazine/news/jeromack/jeromack10-22-07-2.jpg (http://images.artnet.com/images_US/magazine/news/jeromack/jeromack10-22-07-2.jpg)
http://thepeerage.com/160114_003.jpg (http://thepeerage.com/160114_003.jpg)
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/Radcliffe,Thomas%283ESussex%2903.jpg (http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/Radcliffe,Thomas%283ESussex%2903.jpg)
My goal is to create a Kit that looks similar to these harnesses:
http://www.arador.com/gallery/friend3.jpg (http://www.arador.com/gallery/friend3.jpg)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PwjeSvMEX2E/Ty9n1fOAOLI/AAAAAAAAANs/Pe2DfI7FekU/s1600/100_4565.JPG (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PwjeSvMEX2E/Ty9n1fOAOLI/AAAAAAAAANs/Pe2DfI7FekU/s1600/100_4565.JPG)
http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/citi/images/standard/WebLarge/WebImg_000130/165164_1330030.jpg (http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/citi/images/standard/WebLarge/WebImg_000130/165164_1330030.jpg)
http://www.expressandstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/WD4199388.jpg (http://www.expressandstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/WD4199388.jpg)
(The harness to the right)
or even like this one.
http://historicalarmouries.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=89840234 (http://historicalarmouries.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=89840234)
I am planning to contact Valentine Armories to see if they are available and willing to accept the project, I am seeking to spend about $2,000-$4,000 depending on costs. Luckily they have these pictures that go along with my idea
http://www.varmouries.com/cgallery/arch_20a.jpg (http://www.varmouries.com/cgallery/arch_20a.jpg)
http://www.varmouries.com/cgallery/arch_09a.jpg (http://www.varmouries.com/cgallery/arch_09a.jpg)
The difference is that there will be no inlays or decorations on the armor.
The soft kit is more likely to be Revival Clothing, I am designing that at the moment and will let you know what the soft kit idea is.
Thoughts, comments and suggestions are always welcome!
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but revival doesnt have any 16th century clothing does it? why mix the periods of soft kit and hard kit?
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I really hope this turns out. 16th century armor is oh so pretty! Are you entertaining the idea of a blackened harness like some of the first pictures you linked?
One thing I found with price points on expensive armor is that the finish can make a HUGE difference in cost. Close to a mirror shine on armor is vastly more labor intensive than a satin finish. So when negotiating cost on the project (and time for that matter), if you're willing to accept a lower level of polish on armor you can significantly drop the cost if you're facing quotes that are higher than you anticipate. That saved me a lot on my harness after I got over the initial sticker shock of some of the quotes I first got.
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but revival doesnt have any 16th century clothing does it? why mix the periods of soft kit and hard kit?
Yes you're right, I was planning to get their hose, and shirt from them, boots I have yet to find. An arming doublet is also hard to find, I might custom order one from Fuhlen Designs.
Are you entertaining the idea of a blackened harness like some of the first pictures you linked?
One thing I found with price points on expensive armor is that the finish can make a HUGE difference in cost. Close to a mirror shine on armor is vastly more labor intensive than a satin finish. So when negotiating cost on the project (and time for that matter), if you're willing to accept a lower level of polish on armor you can significantly drop the cost if you're facing quotes that are higher than you anticipate. That saved me a lot on my harness after I got over the initial sticker shock of some of the quotes I first got.
Thank you for the suggestion, I think I will go for a Satin finish or any lower level polish when I make the order. Thank you.
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Have you talked to Robert MacPherson, Clang, or Luther Anshelm?
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I've thought about doing a 16th Century Knight as well. I already have the breast and back for Pikeman kit, so really all I'd need to add is the arm harness, gorget, and helm to match the pictures you posted. I think I I were to decide to go with full armor, meaning adding leg harness too, I would opt to get a second breast and back, this time without the tassets. I like the tassets for my Pikeman impression, but I think they would annoy me and get in the way with a leg harness. Maybe someday I'll do this, but by this time the idea of High Chivalry was long over and the role of the Knight had changed to more of an administrator and battlefield commander. These are not what I think of when I think of a Knight and I am first striving to put together a Knightly kit that embodies the romantic ideas of High Chivalry.
My the way, my armor came from Illusion Armoring. They have a long waiting list, I just checked their website yesterday and they are currently accepting orders for January delivery, but they allow you to order and make payments, sort of a lay away deal. I also can not say enough about their customer service and communication. It was A+ in my book, Lynette answered all my questions pretty quickly and I got exactly what I wanted. The fit of my breast and back is incredible. I know IF I ever procede with this idea, Illusion is where I will order from, barring Allen reopening Merc Tailor.
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Have you talked to Robert MacPherson, Clang, or Luther Anshelm?
I believe MacPherson is recovering from a wrist injury or something of that nature.
I have looked at Clang Armory's 16th century breast and back plate however it is not what I'm looking for my kit.
I haven't given any thought about Anshelm however I will drop them an email concerning this and I will see what happens, thank you Rautt for the suggestions!
I've thought about doing a 16th Century Knight as well. I already have the breast and back for Pikeman kit, so really all I'd need to add is the arm harness, gorget, and helm to match the pictures you posted. I think I I were to decide to go with full armor, meaning adding leg harness too, I would opt to get a second breast and back, this time without the tassets. I like the tassets for my Pikeman impression, but I think they would annoy me and get in the way with a leg harness. Maybe someday I'll do this, but by this time the idea of High Chivalry was long over and the role of the Knight had changed to more of an administrator and battlefield commander. These are not what I think of when I think of a Knight and I am first striving to put together a Knightly kit that embodies the romantic ideas of High Chivalry.
That is great to know Sir Matthew! It seems you are not the only one with a 16th Century interest. :D
Concerning Tassets I don't think they would get in the way of the leg harness. My observation on the pictures I posted here, the tassets seem to be curved outward than inward which would seem practical. I say this because the end of the tassets would only touch the leg harness and not the entire tassets jamming into the leg harness.
My the way, my armor came from Illusion Armoring. They have a long waiting list, I just checked their website yesterday and they are currently accepting orders for January delivery, but they allow you to order and make payments, sort of a lay away deal. I also can not say enough about their customer service and communication. It was A+ in my book, Lynette answered all my questions pretty quickly and I got exactly what I wanted. The fit of my breast and back is incredible. I know IF I ever procede with this idea, Illusion is where I will order from, barring Allen reopening Merc Tailor.
I did consider Illusion Armoring and I like their 16th century Style Harness. Since I am making a combo of a hard and soft kit, I am only interested in just the upper parts of the harness. This would reduce the cost especially for me, but I thank you for your recommendation.
I will consider the suggestions and will find out what happens.!
Concerning the soft kit, I came up with a draft of what I am looking at for the soft kit aspect of the Entire Kit. Well here it is, as always suggestions, warnings and advice are always welcome.
I will start with the Doublets, for an Arming Doublet with voiders, I will do my research concerning voiders. I intend to order one from Fuhlen Designs.
http://www.revivalclothing.com/renaissancefencingdoublet.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/renaissancefencingdoublet.aspx)
http://www.pendragoncostumes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=pendragon&Category_Code=italian (http://www.pendragoncostumes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=pendragon&Category_Code=italian)
Shirts
http://www.revivalclothing.com/15thcenturyshirt.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/15thcenturyshirt.aspx)
http://www.pendragoncostumes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=pendragon&Product_Code=pendragon_shirt&Category_Code=bshirts (http://www.pendragoncostumes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=pendragon&Product_Code=pendragon_shirt&Category_Code=bshirts)
Now for the pants:
http://www.revivalclothing.com/simplemedievalhose.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/simplemedievalhose.aspx)
http://www.moresca.com/product_info.php?products_id=119 (http://www.moresca.com/product_info.php?products_id=119)
http://www.pendragoncostumes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=pendragon&Product_Code=venetians&Category_Code=cpants (http://www.pendragoncostumes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=pendragon&Product_Code=venetians&Category_Code=cpants)
And finally the boots which was a little difficult (the boots will be black)
http://www.revivalclothing.com/restockedtalbotsmedievalkneeboots.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/restockedtalbotsmedievalkneeboots.aspx)
http://www.revivalclothing.com/talbotsmedievalthighhighboots.aspx (http://www.revivalclothing.com/talbotsmedievalthighhighboots.aspx)
http://www.westlandcrafts.com/product_detail.php?prdid=1986 (http://www.westlandcrafts.com/product_detail.php?prdid=1986)
http://www.westlandcrafts.com/product_detail.php?prdid=2008 (http://www.westlandcrafts.com/product_detail.php?prdid=2008)
My goal is to create a Kit that will resemble or closely match the pictures in my first post. I am looking to create a look that is both accurate and will give the look.
Suggestions, warnings, advice and thoughts are always welcome.
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MacPherson is not taking any more commissions the last I heard, and I believe Valentine Armories shut down when the owner moved to Las Vegas. Illusion will take partial armor orders, so you can buy just the upper half of the suit - you just wouldn't get the full suit discount (10%).
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Thank you Sir James, it is most helpful. Well it seems Illusion Armoring it is.
Illusion will take partial armor orders, so you can buy just the upper half of the suit - you just wouldn't get the full suit discount (10%).
I'm aware of it and I calculated the price of the partial armor order which would look like this:
(All pieces are in Stainless Steel)
Close Helm: $660
16th Century Pauldrons: $233
Peascod Breast and Back Plate: $233
16th Century Full Arms: $315 (plus strapping for the arm harness which is $60)
"Munition" Mitten Gauntlets w/Strapping: $248
Which comes down to a total of $1,749
This is a price I would agree to paying (when I have the monies ready that is).
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The Moresca pants are nice, but a bit pricey for me. I wear simple dutch slops with my kit. If you wanted to "upscale" your pants, Venetians work and both are period to the 16th century. I got my pants from Sykes Sutler, who sell both types, and they are much cheaper, arount $85 for wool pants. They also sell period appropriate shirts for around $40.
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The Moresca pants are nice, but a bit pricey for me. I wear simple dutch slops with my kit. If you wanted to "upscale" your pants, Venetians work and both are period to the 16th century. I got my pants from Sykes Sutler, who sell both types, and they are much cheaper, arount $85 for wool pants. They also sell period appropriate shirts for around $40.
Thank you for the recommendation Sir Matthew! I am looking a specific type of pants which is why I chose the Moresca. The price is fair enough and worth it in my book.
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In regards to the soft kit, forget the Revival Clothing links, the Pendragon or Moresca links are the ones I will take into consideration.
I seem to be nearly set with a plan, all I need is time and the monies to make it happen. But I will let you Brethren know what happens in the near future.
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If you are getting anything from Revival Clothing, they're having a 20% off sale, through tomorrow only. Figures, as I just got an entire soft kit from them 2 weeks ago, after waiting a couple months and finally deciding "they won't have any sales until summer".
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ooh you know whatd be cool? Full plate upperbody with robe bottoms
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If you are getting anything from Revival Clothing, they're having a 20% off sale, through tomorrow only. Figures, as I just got an entire soft kit from them 2 weeks ago, after waiting a couple months and finally deciding "they won't have any sales until summer".
I caught wind of that deal and it is a good deal. However since I'm getting to specifics that are more historically accurate, Revival Clothing has to go although I do recommend them for their excellent garb.
ooh you know whatd be cool? Full plate upperbody with robe bottoms
That would be cool, although I haven't looked for any robed bottoms, but that is in consideration. You got the idea of what my Kit will look like. ;)
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If you are getting anything from Revival Clothing, they're having a 20% off sale, through tomorrow only. Figures, as I just got an entire soft kit from them 2 weeks ago, after waiting a couple months and finally deciding "they won't have any sales until summer".
Thanks for pointing this out! Somehow I managed to delete the email without reading it.
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Thanks for pointing this out! Somehow I managed to delete the email without reading it.
Good thing you caught on Sir Edward, that was a deal saved! :)
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Soft Kit Update!
Soft Kit is as follows:
Pendragon Costumes
Italian Doublet: $245.00
Pendragon Shirt: $75.00
Sykes Sutler
Venetian Pants (Medium): $85.00
Museum Replicas
Leather Cavalier Boots: $110.00
Total: $515.00 This is not bad in my book, so if I take the grand total it would come to:
$515.00 + $1,749=$2,264
This is good in my book, this is something that I can work for in several months. So with this, now you all will know what to expect. I will be posting pictures of my acquisitions and will show these kits in progress in the near future. I thank you for your patience.
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I'm glad you opted for Sykes pants. The correct pants make a huge difference in a kit, as I found out through experience.
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I'm glad you opted for Sykes pants. The correct pants make a huge difference in a kit, as I found out through experience.
One can say that the correct parts of any kit make the huge difference. That is why I decided to learn from the experience of others before making my own choices in regards to what I will invest my time and money on. Still, thank you Sir Matthew.
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Hard Kit Update! I noticed after examining a couple of portraits and paintings that there are more times that the tassets on 16th Century breats and backplates than those without tassets. So I decided to make a few adjustment to my hard kit, the first is adding the tassts to the breastplates. The scecond adjustment is changing the close helm to an armet (also used in the 16th century) because the close helm appears to big for my head size. So here is the following revised list: (remember stainless steel is the steel I'm going for)
Armet with Punched Visor: $780
16th Century Pauldrons without Haul Gaurds: $233
Peascod Breast and Back Plate with 1 Fauld and 5 piece tassets and strapping for neck, arms and bottom of tassets: $360 + $30
16th Century Full Arms with Strapping: $315 + $60
"Munition" Gauntlets with Strapping: $248
Total $2026
Review of the Soft Kit:
Pendragon Costumes
Italian Doublet: $245.00
Pendragon Shirt: $75.00
Sykes Sutler
Venetian Pants (Medium): $85.00
Museum Replicas
Leather Cavalier Boots: $110.00
Total: $515.00
Grand Total of both Soft and Hard Kit: $515.00 + $2026 = $2541
It is a bit more expensive but it is still within my price range that I would pay with monies in hand.
I know this may be annoying but I have to be careful of what I am willing to invest time and money in, making adjustments helps with knowing what you want out of it. To me, it would be better to take time finding out what you want in a Kit before ordering it and finding out you don't like it. Anyway, I am looking forward to it and my hard kit would now look a lot like this:
(http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/citi/images/standard/WebLarge/WebImg_000130/165164_1330030.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PwjeSvMEX2E/Ty9n1fOAOLI/AAAAAAAAANs/Pe2DfI7FekU/s1600/100_4565.JPG)
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Very nice!
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I must add that I do not intend on my hard kit being a replica of the harness shown in the pictures, but rather the pictures are an illustration of what my hard kit would look like only mine would not have the etched embroidery.
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Kit Update!
Take a look at the thread I started on the MyArmory forum! I received a ton of feedback and advice concerning my 16th Century Soft and Hard Kits!
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26025 (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26025)